Happy New Year - Heyboer vs. Pacific voltages

[funkmeblue]

pacific gave Ken's line card to K&M without his permission, How does one go about protecting there design?

[hairyandy]

I really don't understand any of this , nor why it is an issue ?

I came into this whole thing not wanting to build a replica , but yet a nice sounding amp for myself. So the power supply board was right up my alley . I actually have one of his Rockster kits in transit.

Now that people are catching on to him carrying amp supplies at all I am sure he has been getting requests to carry more "authentic" parts. In which he seems to be obliging and making an effort to offer correct information , as well as differences between non OEM alternitives.

Just my opinion.

Less TGP ... More Amp stuff ?

Hey SP,

I totally agree, more amp stuff and less TGP!!!

Your Rockster kit is gonna sound great, I'm sure of it, and I'm sure you'll have a blast and learn a lot making it which really is the best part of it all in my book.

One thing that you should already be aware of though, and this was the impetus for my comments about RJ's power supply board, is that more than just about any other amp other than Dumbles, the TW's are and always have been a bit of a mystery. Unfortunately with KF's passing a lot of that mystery was lost with him and was left to guys like Allyn, Dana, Heebs and many others to discover. The comments by Dart and Ron about starting with a dead-on clone are correct--you ABSOLUTELY should do that if you're really interested in hearing what a REAL TW sounds like. The Ceriatone kits don't do it. They can sound good but it's not the same, trust me---they can be made to be correct but they're not as a build-it-by-numbers kit. I have a Paul Ruby Express and I've AB'd it with a real Express (the "Undocumented 1990 'Reject'" that I took pics of in the 'Files' section). There really is a difference in how these things react to the guitar and sound and you'd be surprised at how the little things matter---speaker choice, speaker cabinet build, trafo choice, cap choice, etc.

Anyway, enough boring shit. Let's build some Trainwrecks!

Andy

[hairyandy]

The VVR seems to be accepted because:

-Dana designed it, and he's one of our most knowledgable amp here at TAG with a huge number of Wreck builds under his belt.

-It does not cause significant sonic issues because it controls the entire amp...

I respectfully disagree. Tubes have a limit to their operating range and they are non-linear - controlling the whole amp has limitations. If you want to use VVR, that's cool. I just have an opinion that doesn't match yours.

The "approved" chassis is in fact not the original Hammond, but a design improvement due to the flimsiness of the original. Use whatever you want, who gives a shit. Allyn did his because there was no other alternative at the time, and he doesn't make money on them at all anyway. Same goes with transformers.

Fine. So what's the rub with using a power supply board? We can't make design improvements to the, arguably, least well engineered (mechanically speaking) aspect of the entire amp? Great gobs of glue! And what's the rub with doing some actual voltage measurements on some parts? Allyn seems to have some baggage here, some discomfort that is boiling over the top.

If you are going to be in the Clone it or Die club, stick to the rules. If you accept that modifications are acceptable, then stay open to that. Seems simple... As to "no other alternatives at the time"... Well, that was then. What now?

Be well, everyone. No exceptions.

Zippy,

The VVR is a different animal. The accepted dogma (pretty much straight from KF's mouth if you read any of the interviews with him) is that anything that interrupts the signal flow or impedes it negatively impacts the tonal integrity of the amp. Yes, the VVR can be said to do this, especially when turned down a lot, BUT if it's turned off it doesn't. That's not conjecture, it's proven fact verified over and over again by the old guard here. I put a VVR in my Liverpool and it sounds the same as it did pre-VVR when it's on full shred.

The mods that have been mostly perpetuated by the Ceriatone kits actually screw with the integrity of the amp. As a function of the TW signal flow you cannot put a standard MV or an FX loop in these amps without changing the fundamental sound and feel of the amp. PERIOD. That's not up for debate, that's just plain fact. When you do that it's no longer a TW.

Andy

[dartanion]

pacific gave Ken's line card to K&M without his permission, How does one go about protecting there design?

I don't know the specifics to this, but this does seem to be common practice with transformer mfgrs. I think it would pay for the individual to inform their mfgr that their part numbers not be sold to the public. It's on both parties for this to work.

The problems with the power supply board are that it will likely change how the amp performs to some degree, and layout/lead dress makes a huge difference in these amps. I'm sure it works fine, and probably is not hugely different tonally. However, changing the layout and adding another board can effect things in a negative way, not always, but it can.

[rawnster]

pacific gave Ken's line card to K&M without his permission, How does one go about protecting there design?

I don't know the specifics to this, but this does seem to be common practice with transformer mfgrs. I think it would pay for the individual to inform their mfgr that their part numbers not be sold to the public. It's on both parties for this to work.

The problems with the power supply board are that it will likely change how the amp performs to some degree, and layout/lead dress makes a huge difference in these amps. I'm sure it works fine, and probably is not hugely different tonally. However, changing the layout and adding another board can effect things in a negative way, not always, but it can.

...hmmm this coming from someone who uses cap cans in his TW-inspired builds.

Darin, I couldn't let that one go by without giving you some raz.....of course, all in fun

[dartanion]

Hey Ron,

Actually, I don't use cap cans in my builds, but snap in caps glued to the chassis with PTP dropping string and bleeder. My approach is similar to Ken's, but I have my own build style that has developed over the years, so this is how I build. I have built accurate clones too, and that was a good bench mark to work from. However, I am not a fan of how Ken did his PS caps, so I came up with something that works for me.

I figured you'd chime in to give me some shite!

How's the Rocket Reverb?

[redshark]

I'm a newbie here, I just built my first TW express but I think this whole thread has many interesting aspects that probably will be informative on one side but could confuse people that are coming here for the first time.
My express came out good, since the first time I fired it up, very low hiss level, great response, loudness, all the "qualities" that make this amp what it is.
It was very positive that I had the chance to go to the Nashville amp show and tried "orphan annie" because at least you know what you are going for as a builder. Try more to copy how it feels and sounds more than just how it looks. Also Glen is a great guy and made some suggestions for my build.
When I did my smoke test, at that moment I had nothing more on my mind but than thank all the people that had contributed to this forum. The great pics of Francesca, all the building guide, BOM which I qualify as a "labor of love" from Ron and all you guys here.
My amp is in the thread "Documenting express clone performance"...now is my amp a real clone? it could be but I used diferent electrolytics, diferent lamp, diferent impedance switch...why? because I though the switch and the lamp had nothing to do with tone or performance.. the caps? I didn't want to spend 100 on mallorys and I know F&T are a great quality cap, probably not used by KF because they were not widely available when he was building but I'm sure they don't degrade the performance level at all.
My chassis and trannies are from Allyn, my boards from RJ, thank you guys and I'm very happy...that is what is all about!!!! BE HAPPY!! Is the best amp I've ever played.
Who owns this line card or any other part exclusiveness? who cares!! Still there's a way to build the amp of your dreams if you come to this forum...THANKS A LOT ALL OF YOU!!
Key ingredients: good transformers, good lead dress, good tubes, and the most important thing....fine tunning!!! listen to the amp see how it reacts, experiment with bias, and then it will happen....

[rawnster]

Hey Ron,

Actually, I don't use cap cans in my builds, but snap in caps glued to the chassis with PTP dropping string and bleeder. My approach is similar to Ken's, but I have my own build style that has developed over the years, so this is how I build. I have built accurate clones too, and that was a good bench mark to work from. However, I am not a fan of how Ken did his PS caps, so I came up with something that works for me.

I figured you'd chime in to give me some shite!

How's the Rocket Reverb?

hehehe

I won't derail the thread, but to answer your question, the rock/verb is going very well. Had someone here locally who heard the previous rocket/verb, and liked it to the point of asking if I would build him one. So, I'm sourcing parts for another build. fun stuff.

[marcoloco961]

The point here is that many of the old timers here have spent unending hours scouring the universe for information related to Train Wreck amps. The information here is a compendium of TW schematics and layouts derived from REAL Wrecks, BOMs based off REAL Wrecks, transformer data, chassis specs, chassis drilling templates, and REAL testimonials of what has been found inside REAL Wrecks. This is the place to come for all things related to building TW style amps whether it's a nuts on clone or something inspired by a wreck. This vast collection of information has taken many years to become what it is now and there has been a lot money spent by guys like Allyn and Moose to ensure that proper iron, chassis, boards, parts, etc. are available to the general public, not to mention hosting fees for this site!

Now to the iron debate. The Heyboer and Pacific PTs are both correct. We have gone through this numerous times and these threads are still active if you search the site. The bone of contention here is that suppliers are selling off of private line cards to the general public, which is a no no, but seems to be common practice. I have spec'd out a few transformers myself and had them built by Heyboer for some of my amps. If I found out that Heyboer was selling my designs to someone else without my knowledge, do you think I might be a bit pissed off? Yeah, it's cool if you have permission, or they are being resold to you through an authorized channel, but bypassing the line card owner is uncool.

I have no direct dealings with RJ, however I have observed a few things that may ruffle others feathers. Ignoring information about the Rocket from those whom have been inside a few real Rockets is one. For instance, there is no power supply board in a Rocket. As well, phishing for transformer info when it is already posted here in numerous threads, well that's just asking to be spoon fed the info. Do the homework and you'll find the info you need. No one spoon fed the old timers here the information about Wrecks. This info was collected through hard work, persistence, and hands on experience. Spoon feeding this to everyone is not what the forum is about. There are no TW Clif Notes or a Dummies Guide to TWs, so you'll have to extract the info yourself.

So, where are we left? It seems to me that both Heyboer and Pacific need to be informed as to what is proper business etiquette as it seems private line cards have been violated. I will certainly be letting Heyboer know that my line card is not for public consumption. And, I will need to use further measures to protect what I have had them make for me, like removing mfg part numbers.

Again, this is not an attack on RJ, just trying to clear up the situation and point folks in the appropriate direction.

I think RJ offering kits is great as it's a good alternative from getting your kits from overseas. His prices seem reasonable and he's not extolling these as direct TW clones. If there is a beef about listing transformers for sale on his site that are from line cards he doesn't own, well that is between RJ, the mfgs, and the line card owners to deal with.

I am trying to figure out if you are saying no one should be allowed to buy off of Ken's line card or Allyn's line card which was run off of Ken's line card?????????

Or is it anyone's "already designed" line card for a specific rating. Should we all have to design our own tranformers??? I am lost. Are the proper specs for an Express tranny a secret while we share all other info on them? Again, sorry, I am totally lost by this idea.

[dartanion]

You cannot order a Marshall replacement transformer directly from Marshall's line card from whomever is making their transformers. Not gonna happen.

I don't know the full story, but I think Allyn was able to get Pacifics in the first place as he has done a lot of service work on real Wrecks. I wouldn't doubt that a transformer or 2 needed replacement.

The specs of the transformers have been posted here numerous times. There is no secret about that, or this whole conversation wouldn't be happening. Moose's spec'd, Heyboer built transformers and the Pacifics are correct. What Moose and Allyn have done for the forumites here is allow them to buy these at a discount rate financed out of their own pockets. If they decide to not do this anymore, that is their decision. I guess the punishment for not working through these guys is that you'll pay more for single sets or onesy-twosy orders direct from the mfgr.

Now, if you want to design your own transformers based on the TW specs, go for it. No one is stopping you.

The whole point of this thread is about which transformers are correct. It's been said ad nauseum that both the Heyboer and Pacific TW transformers are correct. Where and how you get them is problematic though. I guess there should be a few approved vendors appointed if this continues to be an issue.

It reminds me of Tommy Boy. "You can get a good look at a T-bone by sticking your head up the cow's ass, but wouldn't you rather take the butcher's word for it?"

[Ron Worley]

The VVR seems to be accepted because:

-Dana designed it, and he's one of our most knowledgable amp here at TAG with a huge number of Wreck builds under his belt.

-It does not cause significant sonic issues because it controls the entire amp...

I respectfully disagree. Tubes have a limit to their operating range and they are non-linear - controlling the whole amp has limitations. If you want to use VVR, that's cool. I just have an opinion that doesn't match yours.

The "approved" chassis is in fact not the original Hammond, but a design improvement due to the flimsiness of the original. Use whatever you want, who gives a shit. Allyn did his because there was no other alternative at the time, and he doesn't make money on them at all anyway. Same goes with transformers.

Fine. So what's the rub with using a power supply board? We can't make design improvements to the, arguably, least well engineered (mechanically speaking) aspect of the entire amp? Great gobs of glue! And what's the rub with doing some actual voltage measurements on some parts? Allyn seems to have some baggage here, some discomfort that is boiling over the top.

If you are going to be in the Clone it or Die club, stick to the rules. If you accept that modifications are acceptable, then stay open to that. Seems simple... As to "no other alternatives at the time"... Well, that was then. What now?

Be well, everyone. No exceptions.

In the bottom part of the VVR's travel, I agree that it might get a little fizzy due to the non-linearity you mention, but does not affect the tone as sustantially as other MV approaches apparently do.

There's no problem with using a PS board- but don't represent it as "correct" or as KF designed it. New folks to the board should be allowed to know the difference, then decide if they want to take a different approach.

End of my commentary, my life is busy enough to not want to continue this pointless discussion.

[marcoloco961]

You cannot order a Marshall replacement transformer directly from Marshall's line card from whomever is making their transformers. Not gonna happen.

I don't know the full story, but I think Allyn was able to get Pacifics in the first place as he has done a lot of service work on real Wrecks. I wouldn't doubt that a transformer or 2 needed replacement.

The specs of the transformers have been posted here numerous times. There is no secret about that, or this whole conversation wouldn't be happening. Moose's spec'd, Heyboer built transformers and the Pacifics are correct. What Moose and Allyn have done for the forumites here is allow them to buy these at a discount rate financed out of their own pockets. If they decide to not do this anymore, that is their decision. I guess the punishment for not working through these guys is that you'll pay more for single sets or onesy-twosy orders direct from the mfgr.

Now, if you want to design your own transformers based on the TW specs, go for it. No one is stopping you.

The whole point of this thread is about which transformers are correct. It's been said ad nauseum that both the Heyboer and Pacific TW transformers are correct. Where and how you get them is problematic though. I guess there should be a few approved vendors appointed if this continues to be an issue.

It reminds me of Tommy Boy. "You can get a good look at a T-bone by sticking your head up the cow's ass, but wouldn't you rather take the butcher's word for it?"

On the T-bone, yes.

Don't get me wrong I appreciate all the help that has been given to myself and everyone here at AG. I have bought tranny's from both Moose and Allyn and I am just happy to be able to obtain these parts that are considered "proper" specs. for a resonable price.

But I have to admit I am a avid reader here and I still was somewhat confused on the issue of which specs were proper. As a person who loves building these amps and the sound of these amps, I want to get as close to the proper formula as possible.

Not long ago there was a thread on this exact subject which was I believe was the thread by rhinson which addressed the Pacific 280-250-0-250-280 as being correct for an Express build to which Allyn replied "the proper rating for an Express is 300-260-0-260-300". I also remember a reference to the fact that the K&M Tranny's were not proper and that Allyn's were run off of a more recent line card then the K&M version. If I read that wrong somewhere than please correct me. I just didn't think RJ was out of line in trying to clarify that his tranny's were a proper spec.

And you are way too fast to answer Dartanian. I re-thought my original post and edited within 5 min. as I felt like it was a little too harsh in my wording. Then I realized you had already replied. sorry for the confusion.

[Richie]

am trying to figure out if you are saying no one should be allowed to buy off of Ken's line card or Allyn's line card which was run off of Ken's line card?????????

Yeah that was taken from Stancor...

You cannot order a Marshall replacement transformer directly from Marshall's line card from whomever is making their transformers. Not gonna happen.

Who would want to do that? One of marshalls new transformers.

[Allynmey]

Quite a few interesting statements here....

I'd like to set a few things straight....First Transformers:

Ken's Pacific OT's are a copy of a Stancor 3801 without 250 and 500 Ohm taps.
My trannys are those. I have no idea what the K&M trannys are except that Ken himself said they were not his Express trannys rather another amp project that K&M through misrepresentation to Pacific had made for their clones. Who knows the truth. Ken's interviews stating those are not the right trannys are plastered everywhere....search and you will find.

When I ordered my trannys I confirmed the voltages with three Real TW's I measured to make sure they are correct. I first built my amps with Moose's Iron and it was dead on. Moose's Iron sounds great and has been the standard that these amps have been based on. I had Pacific build me trannys because I wanted to see if the original manufacturer's sounded the same or better. PT's are the same....period. There is a slight difference between the OT's. I like them both. The Pacific has a sweeter distortion (slightly). The Heyboer is slightly more aggresive (which I like for some builds). Both sound correct as real TW vary alot!

For the record, Glen K was the first to get the Pacifics. I got mine a week or so afterwards.

Chassis:

I experimented with Hammond, Bud, custom made, and others and found no sonic difference. I had the chassis designed to fix the common problems that real TW owners complained about...flimsiness. In talking with friends of Ken, I found out that Ken used those because they were readily available, easy to maching with handtools, and didn't require a large investment in drawings and prototyping. No one I spoke to said Ken thought using those chassis was an advantage.

Both have been sold by me when I order extra to save money and pretty much at cost, sometimes below cost . Anyone here who knows what things cost knows that is true. I don't carry a lot of stock because selling TW parts isn't a business for me. If you check my parts site, I don't even sell any TW parts there. I usually in the past have sent people looking for parts to RJ, Dana (boards. vvr), Moose, Brian Wallace (Marstran) or others.
Continued on next post......

[Allynmey]

continued.....

With regard to all the line card talk, I was referring to my designs that I have had Pacific make for me for my amps and not Ken's line card. One in particular was someone trying to order quantity of my Stadium 80 transformers. They said I told them they could order qty. and was representing themselves as my dealer of some sorts. Pacific called me to confirm and quickly denied the guy. Which leads me to this point...Ken has passed. Many don't acknowledge that. The reason Pacific gave for selling Ken's trannys to Glen, Me and countless others is that the design was not property, rather a verbatim copy of a Stancor 3801. When Ken died, they had no need to hold that number.

The Amp Garage.....

This forum is the best amp specific forum on the web...period. This place is made up of builders and innovators and good hearted people that bend over backwards to help people build, fix, or aquire great amps they can afford. Nowhere else is like it. Thousands of $$$ in parts get mailed for free to members from members to help out. I can't tell you how many phone hours are spent member to member diagnosing and fixing broken amps.

Omar created this place to be a amp builders hangout and that is not going to change. To many people, this forum is their homepage setting for this reason. All this for free to boot and no advertisements!