Happy New Year - Heyboer vs. Pacific voltages

[jaysg]

As far as some one wanting to sell Allyn's line card never heard about that before.

Go to RJ's site and look at the iron he offers.

[M Fowler]

Whats your point?

rj sells K&M Pacific iron and Allyn sells Pacific iron under his own line card.

Confused are you? You should be.

Also, Toneslut no longer sells transformers so your way out of line.

[rawnster]

As far as some one wanting to sell Allyn's line card never heard about that before.

Go to RJ's site and look at the iron he offers.

Jaysg, I don't see anything out of line on RJ's tranny page at all. Those Pacific trannies are exactly what you'd get if you called them up and asked for an Express tranny set. I did this a few months ago. The owner, I believe is who I talked with, gave me the rundown on the K&M version of the TW tranny, as well as his history with KF and how they established KF's tranny set back in the day. He asked me if I wanted a set. I said, absolutely. I had them add a 5volt tap for recto tube.

Anyway, RJ isn't ripping anyone off. Pacific is offering the line card to anyone who asks for it.

[hairyandy]

ckpop, quite the reverse. I am reacting to 20-30 pm's I get a day from people looking to build their first TW style amp saying that which info is correct. There is nothing wrong with discussion of parts and layouts but, some people represent their research as something it isn't.

Which side of the fence do you want to sit on, Allyn?

RJ is trying to lay down the facts. If it's already been done then why are you fielding 20-30 pm's a day? What's the rub? You say you're not grumpy about the parts business. Really?

And now, all of a sudden, we're back to the ol' saw about "If you don't own a Wreck, you can't comment on a Wreck." Newsflash: Not everybody has a Wreck nor access to one. You want to make this forum exclusive to only people that own Wrecks? What happened to people hanging here for the joy of building amps? If we embrace those "ideals", the builders can leave and people like Tag can hang out with the Elite.

Wow, your lil' rant really brought out the worst in me today. I think I'll have a triple espresso to cool down...

Have a good year - everyone - no exceptions.

I don't think that Allyn is coming from the "If you don't own a Wreck, you can't comment on a Wreck." perspective at all, quite the contrary. He gets 20-30 PM's a day because people here don't understand how to use the search function and formulate the right question to get the answer that they need or want. That's not necessarily a bad thing and I'm not ragging on newbs, that's just how it is.

There is A LOT of information in this forum and there is also quite a bit that is contradictory (ie: which trafos are "correct"). There is also quite a lot of bullshit spewed--as there is on any forum--and I think Allyn, as Moderator, is just trying to cut through some of that. Remember: Allyn doesn't get paid to sift through PM's and moderate this forum, he does it because he likes it here and he likes helping and sharing. That has always been my experience with Allyn.

RJ seems like he has been trying to help here quite a bit and his parts business is definitely something that helps not hurts this forum and for that he should get many kudos. But RJ is not perfect either, his Rockets are wrong--the power supplies are wrong--so when people see that in a specialty forum like this where we are all trying to just figure out how KF did things it gets confusing. All Allyn is trying to do is nip confusion in the bud and in my mind that's a good thing.

Andy

[Zippy]

But RJ is not perfect either, his Rockets are wrong--the power supplies are wrong...

Are you referring to the PT or something else? I know he doesn't do the Stack o' Caps but is his PS "wrong" electronically or in the layout?

Thanks.

[hairyandy]

But RJ is not perfect either, his Rockets are wrong--the power supplies are wrong...

Are you referring to the PT or something else? I know he doesn't do the Stack o' Caps but is his PS "wrong" electronically or in the layout?

Thanks.

I was referencing the layout, sorry if I was "confusing"---

But that is the thing that I'm talking about. Anything that muddies the waters when we're discussing something like these amps needs clarification and I think that's all Allyn was trying to do. (BTW, I'm speaking for me NOT Allyn here)

Andy

[SkinPimp]

But RJ is not perfect either, his Rockets are wrong--the power supplies are wrong...

Are you referring to the PT or something else? I know he doesn't do the Stack o' Caps but is his PS "wrong" electronically or in the layout?

Thanks.

I was referencing the layout, sorry if I was "confusing"---

But that is the thing that I'm talking about. Anything that muddies the waters when we're discussing something like these amps needs clarification and I think that's all Allyn was trying to do. (BTW, I'm speaking for me NOT Allyn here)

Andy

I really dontunderstand any of this , nor why it is an issue ?

I came into this whole thing not wanting to build a replica , but yet a nice sounding amp for myself. So the power supply board was right up my alley . I actually have one of his Rockster kits in transit.

Now that people are catching on to him carrying amp supplies at all I am sure he has been getting requests to carry more "authentic" parts. In which he seems to be obliging and making an effort to offer correct information , as well as differences between non OEM alternitives.

Just my opinion.

Less TGP ... More Amp stuff ?

[dartanion]

The point here is that many of the old timers here have spent unending hours scouring the universe for information related to Train Wreck amps. The information here is a compendium of TW schematics and layouts derived from REAL Wrecks, BOMs based off REAL Wrecks, transformer data, chassis specs, chassis drilling templates, and REAL testimonials of what has been found inside REAL Wrecks. This is the place to come for all things related to building TW style amps whether it's a nuts on clone or something inspired by a wreck. This vast collection of information has taken many years to become what it is now and there has been a lot money spent by guys like Allyn and Moose to ensure that proper iron, chassis, boards, parts, etc. are available to the general public, not to mention hosting fees for this site!

Now to the iron debate. The Heyboer and Pacific PTs are both correct. We have gone through this numerous times and these threads are still active if you search the site. The bone of contention here is that suppliers are selling off of private line cards to the general public, which is a no no, but seems to be common practice. I have spec'd out a few transformers myself and had them built by Heyboer for some of my amps. If I found out that Heyboer was selling my designs to someone else without my knowledge, do you think I might be a bit pissed off? Yeah, it's cool if you have permission, or they are being resold to you through an authorized channel, but bypassing the line card owner is uncool.

I have no direct dealings with RJ, however I have observed a few things that may ruffle others feathers. Ignoring information about the Rocket from those whom have been inside a few real Rockets is one. For instance, there is no power supply board in a Rocket. As well, phishing for transformer info when it is already posted here in numerous threads, well that's just asking to be spoon fed the info. Do the homework and you'll find the info you need. No one spoon fed the old timers here the information about Wrecks. This info was collected through hard work, persistence, and hands on experience. Spoon feeding this to everyone is not what the forum is about. There are no TW Clif Notes or a Dummies Guide to TWs, so you'll have to extract the info yourself.

So, where are we left? It seems to me that both Heyboer and Pacific need to be informed as to what is proper business etiquette as it seems private line cards have been violated. I will certainly be letting Heyboer know that my line card is not for public consumption. And, I will need to use further measures to protect what I have had them make for me, like removing mfg part numbers.

Again, this is not an attack on RJ, just trying to clear up the situation and point folks in the appropriate direction.

I think RJ offering kits is great as it's a good alternative from getting your kits from overseas. His prices seem reasonable and he's not extolling these as direct TW clones. If there is a beef about listing transformers for sale on his site that are from line cards he doesn't own, well that is between RJ, the mfgs, and the line card owners to deal with.

[Ron Worley]

Unbelievable.........

My BOMs, layouts and build guide are as accurate as I know how to make them, and if anyone has noticed, I update them whenever there's a glaring error or significant change in part information or availablilty. I have populated these documents with exceedingly accurate information from folks who have been inside many real Wrecks. If there are any questionable parts on the BOMs, please bring them forth to be researched and validated / changed. The layouts are based on high res gut shots of real wrecks, so I dispute that there are any significant errors there. I have redone the Liverpool layout in Visio (and am working on a new Rocket layout as well). These may have errors on them due to being new- but the original layouts done by Tim Hulsey are verified as correct and the source for the new, cleaner versions.

As always, I solicit your inputs on any errors I may have made in any of my documents.

The Pacific Tranny info may be incorrect on the BOM, but I put what I knew on there. If anyone has better info, I'm all ears.

I don't get paid one cent to do any of it, and am glad to do it as MY contribution back to the community. I would say that there would be a whole shit load more repetitive questions about Wrecks had I not done so.

You can build these amps any way you want- but lead dress and layout DO count in these designs. I can't say that putting a PS board into a Rocket is electrically wrong- but it is not right either. The point of my efforts is to establish what is the correct "as build by KF" standard. If anyone wants to do it some other way, more power to your elbow.....

If a new person wants to discover what a Wreck is, they should start at what is known and as the designer intended. If then you wish to make variations, knock yourself out- but don't come back asking "why is my amp: Noisy?, Unstable? Ice picky? It's because YOU have strayed from the "recipe", and are now in your own uncharted territory. YOU will then have to use YOUR electrical skills to correct the issues, or rely on the good graces of the smart folks we have on this forum to help (I do not include myself in that group, BTW).

And I am done with my diatribe....

[dartanion]

Ron,

Your efforts ARE greatly appreciated. It's enormously helpful to have the BOMs and layouts posted and a bonus that you spend the time to keep them up to date with the most correct info. I think many folks would be lost without them.

And of course, it's best to build an accurate clone, then tweak to your heart's content. There are just too many that come here and say "I want to build an Express!....with a MV, half power switch, boost stage, Fx loop, etc.", all in their first build. Wrong approach!

Thanks for your efforts Ron!

[Zippy]

Where to draw the line?

VVR seems to be accepted. How come that doesn't get trashed every time it rears its head?

People gobble up "approved" chassis from the venerable ones - what? Wait a minute? What do you mean, the chassis is thicker than the real deal? No dlowels? Where's the MoJo? How come a non-original chassis design is sanctioned yet an alternative PS board is not?

C'mon. Pick a T-shirt and stick with it. Either wear your "Clone it or die" shirt or accept that modifications to the design exemplified in a FEW examples is alright. Ken changed stuff. You've seen it in the few that are around. Who, among any of you, is wearing the mantle handed down by Ken? He used more than one trannie set. Are all the rest WRONG?

Sheeeeesh, at least Tag was a lil' fun with his pissin' and rock throwing...

[ckpop]

Hey everyone I think some valid points were made from both sides but anyone who is getting upset over this needs to go take there blood pressure meds. I think in these tough times many should be worried about issues that really matter and not about the a freaking transformer.

Simply if Allyn has stock of what I want I will order from him, If Rj has stock of what I want I will order from him. The issue to me is not using someones line card # but you sell when you want, when you want this is my problem. This is the reason most go straight to the manufacture and not for the purpose of stealing someones line card.

How many out there just want to build without waiting on parts or dealing with making phone calls every week hoping that transformer is in ? I spend a great deal of money stocking up on items and buy bulk just to avoid this.

The only problem is many feel like you are going around them to cut into there business which is not the case.

[Ron Worley]

Ron,

Your efforts ARE greatly appreciated. It's enormously helpful to have the BOMs and layouts posted and a bonus that you spend the time to keep them up to date with the most correct info. I think many folks would be lost without them.

And of course, it's best to build an accurate clone, then tweak to your heart's content. There are just too many that come here and say "I want to build an Express!....with a MV, half power switch, boost stage, Fx loop, etc.", all in their first build. Wrong approach!

Thanks for your efforts Ron!

Thanks Dart, I appreciate the support. I agree- build it right at first, then go apeshit..... but know that it won't be the same.

The VVR seems to be accepted because:

-Dana designed it, and he's one of our most knowledgable amp here at TAG with a huge number of Wreck builds under his belt.

-It does not cause significant sonic issues because it controls the entire amp, whereas typical MVs, effects loops, etc all interfere with the relationship of the preamp, PI and power section- all of which interact very significantly to yield an amp on the verge of instability with the much applauded "clean to mean" capability with the guitar's volume pot and relatively minor volume change.

The "approved" chassis is in fact not the original Hammond, but a design improvement due to the flimsiness of the original. Use whatever you want, who gives a shit. Allyn did his because there was no other alternative at the time, and he doesn't make money on them at all anyway. Same goes with transformers.

So, again, use what you want- the research has been put in to provide information on what is as accurate as possible. If YOU choose to go other routes, C'est La Vie.... and you will have an amp that reflects your design choices just like any other set of electrical trade offs. If you're happy with the results, great... After all, it's YOUR amp and YOUR taste that matter to YOUR ears.

[dartanion]

Hey everyone I think some valid points were made from both sides but anyone who is getting upset over this needs to go take there blood pressure meds. I think in these tough times many should be worried about issues that really matter and not about the a freaking transformer.

Simply if Allyn has stock of what I want I will order from him, If Rj has stock of what I want I will order from him. The issue to me is not using someones line card # but you sell when you want, when you want this is my problem. This is the reason most go straight to the manufacture and not for the purpose of stealing someones line card.

How many out there just want to build without waiting on parts or dealing with making phone calls every week hoping that transformer is in ? I spend a great deal of money stocking up on items and buy bulk just to avoid this.

The only problem is many feel like you are going around them to cut into there business which is not the case.

I think we all would like to be able to build amps hassle-free, but that is far from reality. I buy in bulk as well, but inevitably I will be short on something or just not have the right value, so you do spend time waiting on parts. It's just part of being an amp builder whether it's a hobby or your career.

On the transformer issue. One more time for everyone to read. All the pertinent information exists in these pages already This whole thread is another one about "Which transformer is correct?", and that raised other issues. If someone wants to spend the time gathering up all the thread urls for every time Wreck transformers have been discussed, I think it would be worthwhile.

RJ, looking back at your own experiment, what conclusions do you draw from it? You may have answered your own question(s).

The line card issue is real. Let's say I design a novel circuit that is to remain a "trade secret" (read not patented, eg. Coca Cola recipe, KFC spice mix, etc.), you contract out the manufacturing of your novel device, and you come to find out that the contract mfgr is selling your device to anyone who requests that part number. Whether it's a life saving medical device, a widgit, or even a transformer, would you want this happening? IDK! I think it's a little obvious. If you happen to spec the same transformer as someone else, then the mfgr needs to have a separate line card and separate part number for you, even if it's the same recipe. Remember that you are contracting the mfgr to build for you, not for an off the shelf part number. If there was an agreement that your part numbers were approved by you to be sold as an off the shelf item, then so be it. No one should be complaining. If not, all claims are legit.

Now, about the "accuracy" of say Allyn's chassis. I have built amps on BUD and Hammond blank chassis, and others have too. I will state for the record that I prefer a chassis that doesn't flex and twist to the extent of what the BUD and Hammond chassis do. It's not wholly accurate, but a warranted improvement and well accepted to not alter performance of the amp. Dowels and weatherstripping, and other things Ken did are not the "make or break" components of an authentic Wreck. Transformers, signal caps, tubes, and layout have everything to do with what makes it a Wreck, everything else is additive to a lesser degree, unless your name is Warble

One last time. Use the search function and you will find everything you need.

[Zippy]

The VVR seems to be accepted because:

-Dana designed it, and he's one of our most knowledgable amp here at TAG with a huge number of Wreck builds under his belt.

-It does not cause significant sonic issues because it controls the entire amp...

I respectfully disagree. Tubes have a limit to their operating range and they are non-linear - controlling the whole amp has limitations. If you want to use VVR, that's cool. I just have an opinion that doesn't match yours.

The "approved" chassis is in fact not the original Hammond, but a design improvement due to the flimsiness of the original. Use whatever you want, who gives a shit. Allyn did his because there was no other alternative at the time, and he doesn't make money on them at all anyway. Same goes with transformers.

Fine. So what's the rub with using a power supply board? We can't make design improvements to the, arguably, least well engineered (mechanically speaking) aspect of the entire amp? Great gobs of glue! And what's the rub with doing some actual voltage measurements on some parts? Allyn seems to have some baggage here, some discomfort that is boiling over the top.

If you are going to be in the Clone it or Die club, stick to the rules. If you accept that modifications are acceptable, then stay open to that. Seems simple... As to "no other alternatives at the time"... Well, that was then. What now?

Be well, everyone. No exceptions.