Happy New Year - Heyboer vs. Pacific voltages

[RJ Guitars]

Happy New Year AmpGarage Forum!

I did a very simple and unglamorous experiment this evening so that I could responsibly answer questions about the voltage differences between Heyboer and Pacific Power transformers for the Trainwreck style amps.

The secondary on the Pacific is rated at 280-250-0-250-280 volts.
The secondary on the Heyboer is rated at 300-260-0-260-300 volts.

With ~120 Volts AC into each transformer I measured the secondary voltages across both taps using a 25K Ohm load and found they were fundamentally identical. This is a pretty light load but satisfactory to hold the leads still and provide at least one data point for a valid comparison of the two. It's possible that with a greater load the differences might change but for a first order experiment I think it is a valid conclusion to say they are comparable transformers.

Input voltage 119.9 VAC

Heyboer HTS-5199 = 300.5 VAC and 260.5 VAC
Pacific 25475 = 301.5 VAC and 263 VAC

rhinson explained this before and here is a look at the actual comparison. Pacifics are rated for voltage under a load and Heyboer are rated for voltage with no load.

interesting fun...

rj

[jaysg]

er...uh...I recall Moose clarifying this suscinctly. Each part was spec'd at a different NA wall voltage, and they are therefore equivalent. What are you adding?

[RJ Guitars]

er...uh...I recall Moose clarifying this suscinctly. Each part was spec'd at a different NA wall voltage, and they are therefore equivalent. What are you adding?

I see where you are coming from, but in this case the wall voltage rating is not a variable. Each manufacturers spec sheet uses a 120 volt primary.

The driver for me to do this was due to some confusion caused by the Pacific secondary ratings of 250/280 volts vs. the Heyboer secondary rating of 260/300 volts. I had several inquiries about which one was actually the correct voltage for an Express build.

rhinson had previously addressed this correctly as the difference in rating a transformer under load vs. open circuit. Heyboer gives us an open circuit rating while Pacific gives us a loaded rating. I think Pacific also confirmed this when someone posed the question directly to them.

As you point out, you could expect the same result if each transformer was rated for a different primary voltage. But the spec sheets were causing some confusion since they both use a 120 volt primary. I don't have them both in the same format but attached are a couple examples of spec sheets. I haven't seen any that use anything except a 120 primary, but it is certainly possible they do exist.

thanks

rj

[dartanion]

Ever heard the saying, "Six one way, half a dozen the other"?

They are both correct.

[Structo]

I have a question about Power Transformer in general.
Does the voltage under load have anything to do with the gauge of wire used in the secondary?

In other words, some PT's seem to hold the secondary voltage pretty stable under load and with the amp turned up while other PT's seem to sag pretty heavily when turned up?

I believe the latter is what we call a "soft" tranny?

So what is the cause of this phenomenon? Wire gauge, type of lamination steel, size of the overall tranny?
All of the above?

Thanks, I am trying to understand the differences in PT's.

[RJ Guitars]

Thanks Dartanion and Jaysg,

A nod of agreement from you guys along with the data allows me to answer folks asking which of them is the right spec as "Either" being technically correct.

Now has anybody built with both and care to comment on any additional similarities or differences that affect tone and/or amp behavior... As Tom points out, a lot of stuff matters besides just the voltage.

rj

[M Fowler]

rj, if I wasn't getting so burnt out on Trainwrecks I would take the Pepsi challenge and build one with Heyboer, Pacific, Edcor, Hammond, Magic Components and the list goes on.

We could start a who has done what so far and compare.



*Express by Ceriatone, took me some work to get the ice pick out of that amp.

*Express with Pacific very nice. Uses 6PS caps

*Express combo with Mojo tweed super/bandmaster OT 6K and JTM45 PT has more treble then the Pacific Express but I also used Sozo caps too.

[dartanion]

Here's my list of transformers used in wreck builds:

Heyboer
Pacific
Hammond
TDS
Ceriatone

They have all been good sounding amps, however there were tonal differences with all of them. Nothing horrid, but the Pacific and Heyboer stood out as performing closest to expectation.

Now, if you want to learn what makes a transformer tick, get your google on and be prepared to read until your eyes fall out of your head. This is some very esoteric stuff, and not easily understood.

[Allynmey]

I'd like to take this opportunity to chime in on a few observations I've had.

First, while we can all appreciate this endless "research" RJ has put into his posts, I find them to be relatively ineffective in furthering TW cloning or building. The reason I say this is it reminds me of the endless guesswork that went on before we had pictures, clips, and ultimately personal experience with real TW amps. Many members now have played real ones and some including myself; have had the opportunity to do a full inspection including repairs and teardowns of actual TW amps.

Not only has every part and value been identified and verified, reproductions of those parts have been accomplished to perfection.

The people who have had me (and others here) build them amps to add to their real TW collections have chimed in also that they are identical and in some ways better because many TW owners haven't had there amps serviced in many years.

I only feel the need to post on this because of the complaints from members who feel that RJ has gleaned info from them in confidence and subsequently took that info and started selling kits or parts or offering info that he was asked not to share.

Recently, I have received calls from Pacific mentioning that someone was trying order my part numbers and asking if they could start selling my part numbers in quantity.

I don’t sell Transformers for a living so I’m not too broken up about it. I’ve sold chassis and extra sets of transformers I’ve had to help people who are looking for the correct parts and pretty much sell them at cost plus shipping. This isn’t about sour grapes in amp parts. I just feel that after all the hard work that this forum and it’s members have gone through to complete exacting layouts and BOM’s for TW’s, I don’t think someone should try to question the research and ultimately come up with a full line of products and represent them as better than what exists without having any personal knowledge or experience with a real TW.

All this is to say; we have confirmed layouts in the files section of all three models. Some may enjoy the endless circle jerk of page after page of guesswork and the tingly feeling of playing Indiana Jones of the amp world but, people come here for knowledge and deserve to get good and accurate info to help them build their own great sounding amp.

I also am not ragging on RJ. Buy his stuff, I’m sure it’s good quality and he seems like a trustworthy supplier. I just think we should keep the water from becoming muddied.

Sorry about the rant.

Allyn

[Mark]

RJ guitars, I didn't see any guitars on the website.

I must admit, I would be really pissed off if I told someone something in confidence and they used it to build up a business. Not cool at all.

[dartanion]

All this has been hashed, rehashed, and is old hash now. Use the search function and you will find it.

[ckpop]

I'm starting to see that this fourm already has the experts and to question or investigate anything further then what they saying will bring backlash from them.
I have been in the amp business for 25 years, I build amps for the pro players, toured with them my whole career and have been out there with the real deal. To take someone's word as an end all is foolish but to keep pushing the envelope and learning by trial and error is how you become better then the next.

I think you guy's are being kind of hard on RJ and I can mention from some of you experts information that has been not been the whole truth or something withheld for your own personal gain.

I sure I will start a firestorm but thats not my intention. Just remember what this forum is about instead of it turning into the good ole boys club.

[Allynmey]

ckpop, quite the reverse. I am reacting to 20-30 pm's I get a day from people looking to build their first TW style amp saying that which info is correct. There is nothing wrong with discussion of parts and layouts but, some people represent their research as something it isn't.

Back in the old Yahoo days there was someone (a certain amp company founder who remains anonymous ) who routinely gave out false info in order to keep some sort of franchise on all things TW. Meanwhile he was cloning amps himself. People were pretty pissed when TW pics and schematics came out and proved him wrong.

[Zippy]

ckpop, quite the reverse. I am reacting to 20-30 pm's I get a day from people looking to build their first TW style amp saying that which info is correct. There is nothing wrong with discussion of parts and layouts but, some people represent their research as something it isn't.

Which side of the fence do you want to sit on, Allyn?

RJ is trying to lay down the facts. If it's already been done then why are you fielding 20-30 pm's a day? What's the rub? You say you're not grumpy about the parts business. Really?

And now, all of a sudden, we're back to the ol' saw about "If you don't own a Wreck, you can't comment on a Wreck." Newsflash: Not everybody has a Wreck nor access to one. You want to make this forum exclusive to only people that own Wrecks? What happened to people hanging here for the joy of building amps? If we embrace those "ideals", the builders can leave and people like Tag can hang out with the Elite.

Wow, your lil' rant really brought out the worst in me today. I think I'll have a triple espresso to cool down...

Have a good year - everyone - no exceptions.

[M Fowler]

I was going to stay out of this but No.

The reason I get so many inquires about TW amps and you all know I am no expert but the BOMs do not reflect what we are talking about on a regular basis, Stancor and Pacific trannies in wrecks. I like Ron W. and all the work he has done with the files section but there are many, many unanswered questions that newbies have not found in the BOM and they come to many of us for answers.

Lately I have sent people Allyn's way because quite Frankly this Pacific Transformer mystery has me by the balls and I am unable to answer so I send them to Allyn.

I think rj is just doing what he can for the community. Currently his stock is at cost so that says alot. Inquiries to Pacific? Many people told me they have called Pacific about the K&M verses Other pacific line cards mystery. They all got the same answer there is only one line card? As far as some one wanting to sell Allyn's line card never heard about that before.

I am done building TWs but many have just got started so they have questions.