Capacitors - why Orange drop and not Fender blue

[Structo]

From SBE spec sheet:

The 715P series has a round profile and is available in tolerances as close as ±1%. The 716P series has a pressed
profile and, in addition, is designed with copper leads, thus adding to it's performance in high frequency, high
pulse current applications.

I see a theme in the spec sheet.

If the series number is odd it is pressed, if the number is even, it is round.

Check it out.

[greiswig]

From SBE spec sheet:

The 715P series has a round profile and is available in tolerances as close as ±1%. The 716P series has a pressed
profile and, in addition, is designed with copper leads, thus adding to it's performance in high frequency, high
pulse current applications.

I see a theme in the spec sheet.

If the series number is odd it is pressed, if the number is even, it is round.

Check it out.

...or the other way 'round.

[thyx]

...maybe a little dyslexia?

...though your analogy works for the mylar/polyester...225 (odd) is flat, while 418 (even) is round.

[Structo]

...maybe a little dyslexia?

...though your analogy works for the mylar/polyester...225 (odd) is flat, while 418 (even) is round.

UGggg, yeah must be, other way round.

[LPSGME]

To my ear, the blue molded caps sound more resonant and somewhat damped...very musical. The PS series seems to me to be the most neutral and even in frequency response, somewhere between the 715 and the blue molded...probably why Dumble used them. The unpressed 418 is very close...virtually the same. Old Black Cat caps sound almost dead-on for the Blue Molded caps...I use them when I can't get the blue moded ones for vintage repairs.

Long story short, caps sound different. But there is no "best" cap as it depends on what you're trying to do. Dumble amps attempt to replicate the original tone as purely as possible...at least until you hit the overdrive stages (if it's an ODS). The Fender blue molded caps impart a warmth and musicality to the tone...sort of like icing on the cake. Both sound good...though not a lot like each other. Dumbe may have "borrowed" circuits from both Fender and Ampeg, but he had his own direction he was going with his stuff.

Does anyone here have [or can direct me to] sound clips of a Dumble circuit design using fender Blue caps?

My first experience hearing a 'dumble'like amp was an mp3 of Scott L. playing a Fuchs' OD. The horn like tone intrigued and impressed me. [also Scott's playing is great]. I didn't know it was a Fuchs at the time, I just knew I liked it; and Scott later confirmed it was a Fuchs. Next I started to listening to Gregor Hilden's Youtube clips and decided that a Gibson ES was essential to the sound I liked [better than a Les Paul] and that Vintage ES guitars had a sweeter sound than newer wood.

But as I next listed to a Ceriatone OT vs. HRM clip, I thought I preferred the non-HRM, finding the HRM had more highs and less lows; but there was also something about the HRM OD that I liked as well. As I looked at the circuit I could see why they sounded different in that way.

So I ended up buying a new used Ceriatone HRM [realizing it could be easily modded] and getting a ES-335 historic. But I still couldn't quite get the tone I wanted.

I tried adding a clone of the Zen Drive and found that opened up a whole new world of sound. I also tried an clone of the Maestro Fuzz Tone that I made long ago (after gutting my original Fuzz tone for it's case). That too embellished the available tone.

Then, after reading a lot of people's comments on Ceriatone mods - I came away feeling that many people preferred the more mellow tones as well as the tone of non Orange cap circuits that had overdrive.

So that is why I was wondering how a Dumble design would sound with non orange caps. I can't help but imagine that HAD started experimenting by just doing overdrives in old Fenders and only then progressed to other builds using other caps.

Because it's very easy to think you are improving something by making changes when, in fact, you may only be making it different and perhaps worse than the original - I wondered if the Orange caps were not as much an improvement as was imagined.

I have no doubt that the Orange caps are needed to get the sound that everyone associates with most Dumble amps. But I'm still wondering if a Dumble circuit would not sound better and more musical with Blue Caps.

I'd experiment myself, but unfortunately currently can't. And thanks for all the great commentary on the OrangeDrop caps.

Again, does anyone here have [or can direct me to] sound clips of a Dumble circuit design using fender Blue caps?

[dobbhill]

Are you inquiring about 40+ year old caps that were probaby pulled from an old Fender? I keep all mine in the vintage amps, where they belong.
Just curious: do you know where to obtain some so I can try them out in one of my Clones?

[LPSGME]

Are you inquiring about 40+ year old caps that were probaby pulled from an old Fender? I keep all mine in the vintage amps, where they belong.
Just curious: do you know where to obtain some so I can try them out in one of my Clones?

Yes, the blue caps found in old Fender amps.
At $12 or more each, I'd be more inclined to pull a few from the rivet board of an old Fender (being they go in and out so easily) before buying any.

But as I posted earlier, someone (in their blog) suggested a particular Jupiter cap as a good substitute.

[brewdude]

SoZo is making a "retrofit" for the blue molded caps found in old Fenders.
The website only lists 3 available values, .022uF, .047uF & .1uF at ~$5, $6 & & ~$7 respectively.
http://www.sozoamplification.com/purchaseBM.html

[LPSGME]

SoZo is making a "retrofit" for the blue molded caps found in old Fenders.
The website only lists 3 available values, .022uF, .047uF & .1uF at ~$5, $6 & & ~$7 respectively.
http://www.sozoamplification.com/purchaseBM.html

I found some interesting comments that relate.

On the gearpage someone said:
"...an email I got from Sozo stated that the new Blue caps have more bass & treble (i.e. less midrange) than their Mustard types which have that big midrange growl."

On another site, someone said they used them on a '79 Baseman 70 [Silverface] rebuild. I assume it had different coupling caps than the Blackface 'blues'. But here's what he said:
"I don't know what they put in those things, but the first time I fired it up I had to back off the bass AND treble to tame it..."

[LPSGME]

Am I getting this right?

Somewhere I read someone say that an Orange Drop has more bass and treble compared to a Fender blue - which is why some folks find them bright or harsh compared to a Blue.

I believe that I'm also reading that the preferred Orange caps are the 'round' 'odd' number series as they are more musical and better at delivering more even harmonics. Their roundness, I presume, makes them sound more like a round blue.

Now in a discussion about 'bloom' Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008, Henry theorized this:
"I think bloom happens when frequencies get compressed in the amp and decompress when notes are held. So if you can get the right upper mid frequency to compress (by being amplified to the point of slight nonlinearity) but not the lows and highs you have something that never sounds compressed even though there is blooming going on. Not to be confused with "sag" which can sound like bloom except in both directions and on all frequencies."

What he said has been my thoughts too in regard. But wouldn't this theory also want a cap that has more of a mid bump [relative to highs and lows] so that the mids go into OD sooner and come out later than the highs and lows?

So if a Blue has less bass and treble, compared to an Orange, doesn't that effectively give the Blue a relative mid bump by comparison - whereby it should provide more bloom?

Although, I think that sweetness and bloom are also produced by asymetries which are perhaps best evoked in the PI section via the imbalance between the plate resistors.

[j-po]

Does anyone have spec sheets that show the freq response/distortion of various cap types?

[hbamp]

SoZo is making a "retrofit" for the blue molded caps found in old Fenders.
The website only lists 3 available values, .022uF, .047uF & .1uF at ~$5, $6 & & ~$7 respectively.
http://www.sozoamplification.com/purchaseBM.html

Just good caps. They don't even have the same size as Blue Molded caps. Same size, foil and coating is very important and does matter a lot.
When you want the Blue Molded Fender sound buy blue molded caps if you can find them and please don't forget to watch their orientation very well. One thing I don't understand is why using the same caps in the entire amp. Mixing different caps can ad the needed spice in your build and give your amp a very own unique character. I love to work with the extra opportunities this is giving me.

[stelligan]

Cool build, hbamp. Is that V1 at the input jack? Please elaborate.

[hbamp]

Yes it is V1.
Basicly this is a super reverb with Brown face tremolo and switchable 220K tone stack bypasspot. This amp sounds perfect from 1 to 10. To me Sozo's are perfect for the tremolo. The AIO is used for smoothness and sweet tone. This orientation is very quiet and there is no need for MF resistors. The amp is very versatile and the subtile use of the switchable tone stack bypass I call "Rude" is a real nice option. Warm breathing Fender clean to all the crunch you want. Using the ZEN drive you nail the RF sound pretty well. I like the good Dumble tone's and tweaking tone controls is basicly what HAD did with this circuit including the benefit of a real good reverb and tremolo.
The mp3 is same style amp with marshall tone stack, Fender Strat, tube screamer.

[Structo]

Yes you are right.
I had that wrong about the 716.

Curious that SBE seems to make over 28 different polyprop caps while the polyester is relegated to the 225P, 418P and PS series.
The PS6 being a favorite of the D amp crowd.
Mainly because of the tone and the 600v rating.

Several of the polyprop caps use metalized film in construction.

The 225P is pressed while the 418P is round and the PS series is also round.

Many techs I have talked to prefer the PS6 polyester caps for guitar amps while the hi fi crowd seems drawn to the polyprop caps.

In the literature, the PS cap is touted as designed for use in DC circuits.

Years ago I knew a guy that refurbished old tube receivers and amps and he preferred the polyprop caps.
I don't know if it had to do with time constants or what but he did say they sounded more musical to him.
He hated the Mallory 150's.