All Trainwreck BOM's updated again- V2.0

[Ron Worley]

Sounds good.

Also, Heyboer made me a 120/240 Express PT for a build I did for a UK friend with the part number HTS-5199 EX. This unit is good for when you have to build a Euro capable amp and be able to test it before you ship. It's obviously also good for a player who might be performing in different countries with each mains voltage type.

[UR12]

Sounds good.

Also, Heyboer made me a 120/240 Express PT for a build I did for a UK friend with the part number HTS-5199 EX. This unit is good for when you have to build a Euro capable amp and be able to test it before you ship. It's obviously good for a player who might be performing in different countries with each mains voltage type.

I found out real fast with the Lil Devil that 120 and 240 only won't get it in some countries. You have 100v in Japan, 200 volts (somewhere can't remember) 220v in Greece, 230v in Sweden (IIRc) and 240 in the UK. I may have these mixed up and please correct me if I am wrong but they are all valid voltages in other countries.

[M Fowler]

What about Hertz as well, isn't that big problem in UK 50hz there? Or is that issue solved.

[paulster]

I found out real fast with the Lil Devil that 120 and 240 only won't get it in some countries. You have 100v in Japan, 200 volts (somewhere can't remember) 220v in Greece, 230v in Sweden (IIRc) and 240 in the UK.

We've really confused things in Europe by 'standardising' on 230V, which actually meant that they defined the voltage range wide enough that you could still use 220, 230 or 240V and be within specification, and of course virtually no-one actually changed. Everyone now thinks we use 230V and that's fine for most consumer electronics items that step down the line voltage, but not so when we choose to step it up.

Here's a handy chart:
http://www.powerstream.com/cv.htm

What about Hertz as well, isn't that big problem in UK 50hz there? Or is that issue solved.

IEC/EN 61558-2 for transformers specifies, amongst other things, that they have to meet its specifications over a frequency range of 47-63Hz, so a new transformer has to be equally good for 50 and 60Hz.

It does mean that you can under-filter in a 60Hz environment and then find an issue in a 50Hz environment, but that would only be in marginal cases. I think it was the CAA preamp that suffered problems in Europe for this reason and it was finally tracked down to the combination of the mains frequency and the filtering. It never caused an issue in testing in the US at 60Hz or course.

[RJ Guitars]

What about Hertz as well, isn't that big problem in UK 50hz there? Or is that issue solved.

I'm not strong enough in the theory to fully explain it, but there is at least one aspect of the frequency issue that is solved using the M6 steel. It has to do with the 50 Hz creating both noise and heat that is not seen at 60Hz. M6 being the slightly more expensive grain aligned steel does not suffer from these issues. Possibly one of our stronger material scientists could more fully explain all that to us in technical detail.

Since the output transformer does not see the AC (I realize most of you already know this), then the steel in the output transformer is not affected by the foreign voltage specifications. I think rhinson did some testing with various steels in OT's and has declared he does not hear a significant difference when all things are the same otherwise. The history (or maybe it's folklore) does indicate that the M6 will produce a cleaner tone while the M19/26 is a bit warmer. M6 tends to add about $6 to the cost of each transformer and is the preferred choice in most HiFi trannies.

Here is the note I received from on the Power trannies: Phil -"I have a US 120V and an EX model of the 5199 on file. 0-100-120-220-230-240... both have M-6 grain oriented steel". These would have the 300-260-0-260-300 secondary that we are all familiar with.

This model would hopefully cover the world... I plan to stock them but would like to know what the interest level is so that I don't over or under stock. Send me a PM if you have need of these.

thanks,

rj

[UR12]

I found out real fast with the Lil Devil that 120 and 240 only won't get it in some countries. You have 100v in Japan, 200 volts (somewhere can't remember) 220v in Greece, 230v in Sweden (IIRc) and 240 in the UK.

We've really confused things in Europe by 'standardising' on 230V, which actually meant that they defined the voltage range wide enough that you could still use 220, 230 or 240V and be within specification, and of course virtually no-one actually changed. Everyone now thinks we use 230V and that's fine for most consumer electronics items that step down the line voltage, but not so when we choose to step it up.

Here's a handy chart:
http://www.powerstream.com/cv.htm

What about Hertz as well, isn't that big problem in UK 50hz there? Or is that issue solved.

IEC/EN 61558-2 for transformers specifies, amongst other things, that they have to meet its specifications over a frequency range of 47-63Hz, so a new transformer has to be equally good for 50 and 60Hz.

It does mean that you can under-filter in a 60Hz environment and then find an issue in a 50Hz environment, but that would only be in marginal cases. I think it was the CAA preamp that suffered problems in Europe for this reason and it was finally tracked down to the combination of the mains frequency and the filtering. It never caused an issue in testing in the US at 60Hz or course.

Thanks Paulster!

The problem with the 230 volt is that if you only have a 220 or 240 winding available then your heater voltages will be off and higher than normal if you run your 220v tap at 230 and lower if you run your 240v tap at 230. I would opt at running the 220v tap at 230 and install a couple of resistors on the heaters to bring it back into spec. Getting the tranny to run 50 or 60hz is not a problem as RJ pointed out.

[RJ Guitars]

I did some math to look at voltages if you use a 230 tranny at 220 or 240 volts.

220V primary -- 6.03 volts heater
240V primary -- 6.6 volts heater

As Dana points out you can fix a slight over-voltage with a couple resistors. I don't see much you can do about the under-voltage condition.

It looks like about a 5% deviation from the specified value. In addition to verifying my math, does anyone know what will happen if you run the heaters at these voltages? I know that I occasionally see deviations similar to these in heater windings on some transformers. Then of course there are always the local deviations from the standard value expected from any countries AC power grid.

Assuming you can live with or deal with the heater voltages, what can you do about the ultimate voltage on the secondary B+ winding? Would it be reasonable to change a power resistor or change the dropping string resistors on the rectified B+ power to align everything toward an ideal value? Is there a better way to do that?

220V primary -- 287 volts B+ secondary
240V primary -- 313 volts B+ secondary

rj

[v846]

I remember this being brought up years ago at the JTM45 group resulting in some having multi tap PT's made up, Marstran has a such a PT available for the TW

[Bombay]

Yup, that looks like my PT.

I wonder what Phil was going to sell?

[paulster]

I have a US 120V and an EX model of the 5199 on file. 0-100-120-220-230-240

The potential trouble with these Marshall-style taps on transformers is that you now have a much smaller 120V winding since you need to squeeze a winding long enough for 240V on the bobbin, unless you increase the size of the transformer to allow a 120V winding as it was before and then extend it with lower current wire to 240V.

I specify mine (and Phil makes them) as dual 120V primaries that I wire in series for 240V or parallel for 120V. This means none of the disadvantages when using them at 120V, but it does effectively limit me to a choice of 2 primary voltages. You could get round this by having two windings each of 100V, 110V, 115V and 120V, that you'd put in series of parallel but that's a lot of effort.

There's a lot of thought about how vintage Marshalls sound but particularly 'feel' a lot better when running on 240V because the transformer is responding better with high current drawn off the HT secondary, whereas the 120V wind isn't really up to the job and was, of course, never really tested over this side of the pond.

This may be a non-issue depending on how much room there is on the bobbin to get a high current 120V winding in and then the additional winding but I'd consult with Phil before heading straight down this route and discovering that the feel of the amps change at 120V.

[RJ Guitars]

... I'd consult with Phil before heading straight down this route and discovering that the feel of the amps change at 120V.

Thanks Paulster,

That is a good call and it hadn't occurred to me. The standard 120V primary 5199 is cheaper than the multi-tap so here in the US that is the better offering. For the 100V of Japan, well it hasn't been a big market yet so maybe let that sort itself out without my help.

I am still curious about my previous heater and B+ voltage questions. Does anyone know what the upper and lower voltage limits and what the up and down side of using a 230 tranny a bit high or low would be? If you make the adjustment to get the voltages right what happens otherwise?

thanks,

rj

[Aurora]

The nominal EU voltage is now 230 V +10/10%, which counts for most of Europe. Some countries may not have adjusted to this scheme yet, but that's the norm.
Before this decret of 2003, most of Scandinavia was 220 +/- 10%, and UK and a few others were 240, tolerances varied somewhat on a national basis....

[UR12]

I am still curious about my previous heater and B+ voltage questions. Does anyone know what the upper and lower voltage limits and what the up and down side of using a 230 tranny a bit high or low would be? If you make the adjustment to get the voltages right what happens otherwise?

thanks,

rj

The Hammonds I first started using on the Lil Devils were 115 off the shelf. I think it was Gary Hultgren that wired his up with the nominal 120v we have now and he was getting a little over 7 volts on the 6.3 volt heaters. My Voltage here at home measures 123v I have all mine wound with two different primarys. The primarys are 100v,120v. It's a pain but you parallel the two 100s or two 120s for 100v or 120v operation, you can series the 100v windings and get 200v, series a 100v and 120v and get 220 or you can series the two 120v and get 240. This solves the problem Paul was talking about but it doesn't give me a combination for 230v without adding a 115v tap on each.

[paulster]

The nominal EU voltage is now 230 V +10/10%, which counts for most of Europe. Some countries may not have adjusted to this scheme yet, but that's the norm.
Before this decret of 2003, most of Scandinavia was 220 +/- 10%, and UK and a few others were 240, tolerances varied somewhat on a national basis....

It's actually 230V +10%/-6% (216-253V) but that's really splitting hairs!

I did read somewhere that there is talk about actually moving it up to 240V to bring it in line with Australia and to make it a convenient multiple of the US 120V standard. It'd suit us in the UK but I don't know whether there was any substance to this. I'll have to look further into it and see whether it was just some British wishful thinking!

We know that 240V transformers on a 220V supply produce really low voltages, as the guy who ordered Pacific transformers which were probably wound to the same spec as the 120/240V trannies I've had from them previously found out.

What I'd probably do would be to have a 220V and a 240V winding, or probably a pair of 110/120V windings so you could still go for series/parallel. Or even a 120V winding and a second 120V winding with a tap at 100V to give 120V, 220V and 240V.

In my experience most wall supplies tend to be over spec rather than under, so most 230V nominal countries will see 235V or so at the wall, which would be fine on a 240V tap. 220V and 240V countries would already be suited by dedicated taps.

Short answer is there isn't an easy answer unless Europe actually standardises on one particular voltage rather than just says we do!

[Aurora]

Splitting hairs, splitting hairs....
I've actually seen +10/-6 AND +6/-10, but so much for that....
Since power companies have adapted to a more modern world and modern world loads, I think most circuits today are over spec, raher than under , except maybe in rural, long line areas..

It get's practically inpossible to adapt to all situations, but e.g. twin 110/120 windings would give some adaption to most situations, like 110,120,220,230,240.