Express Output Waveform Shots

Express, Liverpool, Rocket, Dirty Little Monster, etc.

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Tillydog
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Re: Express Output Waveform Shots

Post by Tillydog »

jazbo8 wrote:... as far as I can see (which is perhaps not much), after the initial drop, the B+ pretty much stayed constant after Volume 2...
Going by the PI supply traces, the B+ has dropped by the best part of 70 volts by that point, which seems like an awful lot to me which is why I was asking about the raw B+. (B+3 goes from 310V, say at volume 0.5 to about 240V at volume 2)

The amp is basically at full power from volume 2 in any case (full output voltage swing).

I've turned my amp into a full Express with EL34s now, so next time I need to un-button it I can make some comparisons :)
katopan
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Re: Express Output Waveform Shots

Post by katopan »

And that's why I need help on this. I wasn't even thinking about the power grid clipping contributing to assymetry because it's just like a lot of other amps and they don't have that behaviour. But they're never driven with a signal like this one is. Thanks Tillydog. And if your amp is now an EL34 Express I'd really appreciate some comparison.

I haven't measured or even looked at the B+ sag, so I'll do that and let you know.

Yes, the 3rd stage going into cutoff moves the output toward being symmetrical again. And yes, as you turn up the amp volume and have hot enough pickups (or a booster) you can hear where it starts to not sound as sweet. Wack the CRO on and even with the real guitar signal you can see how the duty cycle has shifted back to be more symmetrical.

Now humour me while I try and describe in detail the asymmetry. My first thought was that this is a standard LTP PI and EL34 power stage, yet other amps don't do this, or at least no where near to this degree. But it's the signal that drives into the PI that's very different here.

Because of the cold bias of the 3rd stage, it is very compressed on the top (before cutoff) and somewhat expanded with plenty of headroom on the bottom. The PI is fairly warm biased and so has more headroom on its negative swing than positive. With the PI gain and amount of signal available it's very easy to drive overdrive the PI and have the PI grid lift up the cathodes. Refering back to the waves with NFB, the most asymmetry occurs at Volume 6.5. 3rd stage plate positive swing from the trigger point is something around 8Vpeak and that lines up with what's shown on the PI pin 7 grid. Most of that goes above PI grid clipping and appears as peaks around the same voltage on the cathodes. This positive input on the PI grid is the negative swing on the PI Pin 6 plate, which has lots of headroom and a big peak voltage before any clipping (which eventually comes from 3rd stage cutoff). That signal is clipped on the top by the V4 grid but still very large on the bottom. The asymmetrical clipping means it shifts upward creating duty cycle shift to make the top part of the waveform wider via the standard mechanism. Everyone agree?

The V5 grid side doesn't do the same thing because the negative swing of the PI pin 1 plate gets clipped by the PI itself (from the pin 2 grid clamping the cathodes) means that the V5 grid signal is fairly even. It doesn't have a large negative swing and so the V5 grid coupling cap doesn't really move. Or does it? Does the effective bias move of the V4 partially drag the V5 side along with it to create the opposite shift in duty cycle? If it's created on the V4 side by charging up of the coupling cap, why doesn't the V5 side stay symmetrical?

So that's possibly 2 out of 3 with the contribution of NFB and the asymmetry. Next thing we need to explain is how the V4 grid signal comes out of clipping part way through the positive and becomes PI clipping dominant.
katopan
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Re: Express Output Waveform Shots

Post by katopan »

Martin Manning, if you read this I'd really appreciate your input. I've re-read all the earlier stuff in this thread and everything you've said about the PI going assymetrical when overdriven, even with a sinewave, is right. I'm still really struggling to actually get my head around describing how this happens. Any chance of an insight as to how this works?
katopan
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Re: Express Output Waveform Shots

Post by katopan »

I've also gone back and had another look at the attachment I posted back on page 2.
https://tubeamparchive.com/files/expres ... ms_167.pdf

Yes, I know it's the preamp and PI by itself, but it does show both the assymetrical behaviour and the resulting shift in the power grid leak resistor peaks (without the power grids connected). The second behaviour is standard assymetrical signal shift after a coupling cap and is the direct explanation for the V4 grid backing off part way through clipping to become PI clipping dominent. So actually I now feel we have a clear understanding about the effect of NFB and an explaination of how the V4 grid signal comes out of clipping part way through the positive swing and becomes PI clipping dominant. I can clearly see in my own link above that the PI creates assymetry by itself without power grid clipping or NFB. And I know from previous experiment that centre biasing the 3rd stage makes the assymetry bigger rather than smaller (which supports Martin's statement that this happens to a LTP PI even if driven with a sinewave as long as it's big enough). I just can't fully visualise how this is happening.

The other thing I've never noticed before is that in the same link above the pin 2 PI grid not only has the peaks where the pin 7 grid is dragging up the cathodes, and therefore the tail which feeds back in to the pin 2 coupling cap, but the baseline level also increases as the input signal increases. It's possible this is contributing. Assuming that the pin 2 grid coupling cap isn't charging up, then this increase in baseline level indicates an increased total or combined PI current. I think I need to narrow down into this and get waveforms for the top of the 10K tail resistor and junction at the top of the presence pot to add to the existing PI waveforms. That might fill in the rest of the picture.

Just to finalise it, here is my description of how the V4 grid backing off part way through clipping to become PI clipping dominent, creating the mixed mode distortion:

The shift in duty cycle means the positive side of the V4 grid widens and the positive side of the V5 grid narrows, even though the amplitudes are similar. On the power grid side of the coupling caps these signals rebalance themselves around the power grid bias point. The V4 side with its wider positive peak moves downward while the V5 side with its narrower positive peak moves upward. When the duty cycle is symmetrical the PI power node hasn't dropped a heap yet (from power screen current being drawn through the 1K screen power chain resistor) and the PI clipping is well above the power grid clipping. So the output is power grid clipping dominant on both sides with equal headroom, plus the smoothing compression effect of standard screen compression.

When the asymmetry happens the PI power node voltage has dropped (from the power screens drawing current) which by itself lowers the PI output headroom, still above the power grid clipping threshold. The output peaks of the PI plates are reasonably flat topped, while the power grid leak resistors have a dropping slope because of the PI to power grid coupling caps charging up. You then add in the shift from asymmetry and the PI pin 6 plate side drops below the V4 grid clipping threshold during the last half with that dropping slope, moving to PI clipping dominant with less headroom. But the V5 side shifts upward and therefore stays above V5 grid clipping, leaving it as power grid clipping dominant.
katopan
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Re: Express Output Waveform Shots

Post by katopan »

Forgot to mention an important point in the last post. Additional to all of that going on, the PI supply node has a significant (0.364 second) time constant. In my description above when I was comparing before and after the PI supply sag and corresponding drop in headroom, don't forget there's a slight delay from power clipping to when the PI headroom drops. The effect of this is that standard symmetrical power grid clipping can take the occasional peaks off an otherwise clean waveform (which you'll still hear as clean) without slipping over into the asymmetrical mixed distortion mode. This gives the cleans no only more headroom but the opportunity for a little bit of clipping along with the screen compression, resulting in a audibly louder clean. Then if the clipping is sustained for long enough (more than just the very peaks) it flips over into mean mode.
katopan
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Re: Express Output Waveform Shots

Post by katopan »

Thought that simulating the LTP PI would be the easiest way of testing it out and playing around with different changes to see the effect on the asymmetry. I can then valid on a real circuit if I need to. But my very old version of OrCad doesn't want to play nice anymore (used to, I'd say a Vista update somewhere along the line has stuffed it up). I had it set up with Duncan's valve models working and everything. Oh well. Looks like it's finally a good time to download LTspice and get it working.
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jazbo8
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Re: Express Output Waveform Shots

Post by jazbo8 »

katopan wrote:Thought that simulating the LTP PI would be the easiest way of testing it out and playing around with different changes to see the effect on the asymmetry. I can then valid on a real circuit if I need to. But my very old version of OrCad doesn't want to play nice anymore (used to, I'd say a Vista update somewhere along the line has stuffed it up). I had it set up with Duncan's valve models working and everything. Oh well. Looks like it's finally a good time to download LTspice and get it working.
I think your scope shots are much better than what can be expected from the simulations, while SPICE is pretty good at handling small signal anlysis, it does not do so well with dynamic, large signal analysis, i.e., under clipping conditions. I still need to have some coffee before I re-read what you posted above... :lol:
katopan
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Re: Express Output Waveform Shots

Post by katopan »

You're right jazbo8. I've used the Duncan spice models a lot in the past and the linear region is very good, but things like grid current and power valve screen current are rough compared to the real thing. But I was hoping it would show me enough of what was happening to know what I needed to look for in the real circuit.

Well I got LTspice up and running last night and did some simulations of a stand alone LTP PI with values as per the Express. Interesting stuff! I need to work out how I can test the real PI to show the same thing, and I was even starting to doubt it myself. But you guys don't want to believe me about the input cap charging up to clamp the incoming signal, do you? Gotta work out what I need to test and publish here to convince y'all. The mechanism is different to what I was thinking a couple of years ago, but the behaviour is the same.

I've also still got to capture B+ sag vs. signal. I haven't forgotten Tillydog!
katopan
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Re: Express Output Waveform Shots

Post by katopan »

Humour me with letting me describe what I'm seeing in the simulations about how a LTP PI clips. They match things I've seen on the CRO from a real circuit, but haven't captured yet. A couple of years ago when I said grid clipping current was drawn through the 3rd stage to PI coupling cap, I assumed it occurred when the input got above the cathode voltage. It actually happens later than that.

Within linear operation you all know what happens. The pin 7 grid goes up, a small amount of signal gets fed to pin 2 grid via the presence pot in the tail, more signal gets fed to pin 2 grid via the feedback, and the cathodes sit in the middle of these two. Pin 6 plate drops and pin 1 plate rises. Everything looks nice and fairly linear. With a negative swing on the input same but in reverse direction.

When the first stage of clipping happens depends on the bias. In an Express we've got a shared 470R cathode bias resistor. This biases the grids at around -1V compared to the cathodes. Put in a bit over 2V positive signal swing and the pin 7 grid and cathode voltage are equal. Over that and the grid signal pulls up the cathodes so that they stay pretty close to the grid. This results in the pin 6 plate rounded bottom to it's signal. Pin1 plate in the mean time has gone up as far as it will because this side is cut-off. At this point the pin 7 input grid isn't conducting any real current. With the cathodes able or free to come up, this side isn't really going into grid clipping but just holding on the edge of it to pull up the cathodes.

Go the other way with a higher negative signal and the pin 2 grid clamps the cathodes and holds them just under the grid voltage. Pin 7 grid input can continue as low as it likes but now has no effect. The pin 6 plate is as high as it will go as that side is cut-off. The pin 1 plate negative side is flat clipped because of the fixed difference between the pin 2 grid and the cathodes because of this clamping or holding.

Increase the signal and things stay like this for a while, until you hit the point where the pin 6 plate reduces enough compared to the rising cathodes that you hit valve saturation (something you don't see very often). From my posted waveforms, at Volume 6.5 (with biggest duty cycle shift) the PI power node is about 240V, pin 6 plate is roughly 120V, and the cathodes peak is about 28V. We can't trust the grid DC values because of CRO loading. But that equates to an available 240-28 = 212V supply to cathode, with 120-28 = 92V actually across plate to cathode. Draw that as a load line on the 12AX7 characteristics with an 82K load and the intersection with the Vg=0V line is about 75V at 1.65mA. With 240-120 = 120V across the 82K plate resistor we're actually drawing 1.46mA at that point in the signal, at the measured 92V plate to cathode. OK, it doesn't quite line up, but within the tolerance of the installed valve I'd say that's enough to indicate we're at saturation or bloody close to it. At saturation the simulation shows that the rising cathode lifts up into the plate signal and creates an inverted peak (same as what happens on a saturated BJT transistor stage). It's at this point where grid current is drawn from the previous stage through the coupling cap. The cap charges up to drop the PI input grid waveform until it stops peaking enough to drive this side of the PI into saturation. This shift has a clamping effect, and the bigger the drive into the PI the more the signal moves down until the positive peak is clamped around the same position.

This finally explains to me why this shifting and clamping doesn't result in blocking distortion. It's ingenious! In a normal gain stage the clipping and clamping happen at the same point. In a LTP PI the plates reach cut-off on respective sides, but clamping of the input only happens at a larger input swing. There's always a bit of headroom between the two so when the signal backs off it's not sitting below cut-off.

Aiken touches on this: "An interesting thing can happen, though, when the phase inverter hits clipping. This very high input impedance suddenly drops, and can severely clip the input waveform (by "clamping" the top to the cathode voltage level) and raise the lower -3dB point."
http://www.aikenamps.com/index.php/the-long-tail-pair
He doesn't explain how it works, but with the above now we know.
I also found a couple of other vague references to the loss of bass response with LTP PI clipping as well.

In the simulation it's when the inverting side reaches saturation and the input grid signal starts shifting down that we get the introduction of asymmetry. The input grid signal shift down meaning relative to the other grid and cathodes it's working with only the top section of the sine wave. The new 'zero crossing' reference being elevated relative to the true sine wave centre point means that the positive peak is narrow and the negative the wider side. That translates through the PI, power stage and OT into the top of the speaker output also being narrow and the bottom wider - our shift in duty cycle.

The beauty of simulation that I'm not getting with the CRO shots is at time 0 sec the circuit is at no signal steady state. On the CRO everything has moved already. You can see the clipping and movement downwards of the PI input grid signal clear as day at the start of the simulation. I'll get together some simulation shots that show what I'm talking about. After that I've got to play around with my CRO and see if I can get it to one-shot capture to replicate testing the same thing on the real circuit. I've had the CRO for years but only ever used it in the conventional mode.
katopan
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Re: Express Output Waveform Shots

Post by katopan »

OK, here's some simulation shots of where the most duty cycle shift happens. First lot is as shown in the schematic - LTP PI driven directly by a sine wave through a input grid coupling cap. Power grid leak resistors with coupling caps off the PI plates show their loading effect and the shift in operating point that you get (V4 grid side moves up, V5 side moves down) because of the asymmetry generated in the PI. No power grids connected means no power grid clipping, so these are plate waveforms if they were allowed their full swing.

PI_Sim_Grids_Caths.pdf - Gray trace is the sine wave source upstream of the input grid coupling cap. Green is pin 7 grid, brown the cathodes and red the pin 2 grid. See how the pin 7 grid moves down within the first 20ms from the clamping effect.

PI_Sim_Plates.pdf - Green trace is the pin 6 plate, red pin 1.

PI_Sim_Plates_Zoom_Start.pdf - Colours as above. Movement hasn't happened yet and duty cycle is even. Inverted peak from saturation on the bottom is apparent.

PI_Sim_Plates_Zoom_End.pdf - Colours as above. Duty cycle is now asymmetrical. Inverted peak disappeared indicating that the pin 7 input grid has shifted to move the inverting side back to the threshold of saturation.

PI_Sim_Pwr_Grid_Leaks.pdf & Zooms - Green trace is the V4 side, red the V5 side. Shows the shift in signal from passing the duty cycle shifted signal through a set of coupling caps.
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katopan
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Re: Express Output Waveform Shots

Post by katopan »

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Re: Express Output Waveform Shots

Post by katopan »

Second lot is as shown in this schematic - 3rd stage driving the LTP PI.

This time the PI input grid is being driven with a source of some impedance (the 3rd stage). So this time PI grid clipping is very possible when it's driven into saturation. That's a key difference between the pin 7 grid signal when driven by an ideal source (grid draws up cathode further which drives up into inverted peak on plate) vs. driven by the 3rd stage (where it can't drive up as far and the 3rd stage plate signal itself gets clipped on the positive peaks).

3rd&PI_Sim_3rdPlate.pdf - Shows the positive peaks being clipped until the PI input coupling cap charges up moving back to the threshold of saturation.

3rd&PI_Sim_Grids_Caths.pdf - Green trace is the pin 7 input grid, teal is the cathodes and red is the pin 2 grid. Pin 7 input grid is clipped on its positive peaks until it moves downward to be clamped at that clipping threshold.

3rd&PI_Sim_Plates.pdf - Green trace is pin 6 plate, blue is pin 1 plate.

3rd&PI_Sim_Plates_Zoom_Start.pdf - Colours are same as above. Once again the movement hasn't happened yet. Duty cycle is even and the saturation inverted peaks are present at the bottom of the pin 6 plate waveform.

3rd&PI_Sim_Plates_Zoom_End.pdf - Colours are same as above. Once again the movement has happened at this point. Duty cycle is asymmetrical and the inverted peaks have disappeared or at least drastically reduced.

3rd&PI_Sim_Pwr_Grid_Leaks.pdf & Zoomed - More of the same as before, showing the shift where the wider V4 grid positive side moves down allowing it to sneak underneath the V4 grid clipping threshold to become PI clipping dominant, and the narrower V5 grid positive side moves up to drive harder into grid clipping.
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Re: Express Output Waveform Shots

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Re: Express Output Waveform Shots

Post by katopan »

So my next challenge is to generate some similar captures of the real circuit to compare to the simulations, both with and without the power grids connected.
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jazbo8
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Re: Express Output Waveform Shots

Post by jazbo8 »

katopan wrote:So my next challenge is to generate some similar captures of the real circuit to compare to the simulations, both with and without the power grids connected.
Man, you are one productive dude! I just got back home and there are a ton of new stuff to digest, but which tube models did you use for the simulation? Duncan's model? If so, perhaps you want to read my post here. Bottom line is both the Koren and Munro models stink, and don't even get me started on their pentode models... :lol:
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