Why 100 Watts?

[ted01]

Hey Gang,

I'd like to get the opinions of guitar players on 100 watt amps. First, let me say that I am not a guitar player. I'm a geek who has become consumed by how guitar amps work and I have a past in the recording business (only as a hobby nowadays). What quailties can be found in a 100 watt amp that can't be found in lower power amps? The 50 watt amp I built can produce in excess of 124 dBA, plenty to wreck my ears. As a guitar player, why would you pick a 100 watter over something lower powered? Like I say, I don't play myself, and this has been something I've been curious about for awhile.

Ted

[CaseyJones]

IMHO it's the ol' "mine is bigger than your is" thing. It's the same reason some guys buy really oversized guns, if yer pee-pee is miniscule ya need a Dirty Harry hand cannon to compensate.

[jaysg]

According to many, the 100W and 50W versions of certain amplifers sound different and sometimes feel different. ymmv

[jelle]

The lowend drive of a 100w amp can not duplicated with a 50w....(ducks for cover.. ) Maybe I only 'believe' an amp when it is loud. A 50w breaks up in the low end when it is played loud, the 100w holds up better at the same volume.

For screaming leads, a 50w is really cool but for rhythm I prefer four octals.

Just my 2 cents....

Jelle

[CaseyJones]

The lowend drive of a 100w amp can not duplicated with a 50w....(ducks for cover.. )

Sure it can. Been there, done that!

Let's de-construct a few urban legends. Traditionally amp builders have used the least expensive transformers they can which generally means barely adequate for the application. A 50 watt amp built with iron suitable for a 100 watter will "think" it's bigger. Bigger better transformers makes for bigger balls.

Bigger amps need more speakers. No... they don't. Back in the day they did. A double stack of 25 watt speakers was necessary to handle the power of a 100 watt head. Blowing speakers became a rock 'n' roll tradition. More cones move more air. But... you can take an old Marshall slant front loaded with Greenbacks, wire all of 'em in paralell for a 4 ohm load and plug a Champ into them for a massive tone. Bigger than a hundred watter? No way but large just the same. Which brings us to...

Why didn't manufacturers use eight speakers for a 10 watt amp? Simple... small amps traditionally sell for small money. Small money doesn't buy massive speaker cabinets. For the most part small amps that cost big money don't sell.

Big wattage may buy you some clean headroom. That means no matter how hard you smack your guitar there's extra watts there to push it. How much is too much? How much you got?!

Headroom is a widely misunderstood topic. In this day and age of hyped value, re-rated horsepower and wattage manufacturers have more and more creative measures of wattage. The traditional tube amp rule of thumb was to measure at 1% THD, that's supposed to be at the onset of clipping. The tube amp Dirty Little Secret is that there's more in there. LOTS more! The major limiting factor is how much current is available from your power supply and to a lesser extent what your tubes will dissipate.

[Andy Le Blanc]

clean headroom has been a predominat arguement for decades
taste in music has changed .. distortion was not tastefull in the past
so a big clean amp was desireable and nessesary
now after many decades the argument has changed
if you bring a non master volume 100 watt tube monster to the gig
and try to get a natural overdrive out of the thing youll hurt people
appropriate watts are venue dependant and in my experience
range from 25 to 50 watts for a non master volume
you can rock the joint with less than 20 watts where anything more
cant be turned up to the amps sweet spot for its player response
with out being overbearing
the other side of the coin is where the player uses the amp strictly
as a power amp for it clean headroom getting desired tones from
the pre.... 100 watts is better suited for this
the trade off is that with a lot of watts and a master volume youve
lost the amps (as with any other acoustic intrument) room coupling
and lose interactive dynamics of a performance....
whats more important..... performance interaction or strict control?

[jelle]

So I think we all agree that a small amp is better for small venues but the OP's question was what quality can be found in a 100w that you cannot find in a 100w.

I guess the only way to find out is to crank a 100w plexi on a big stage (open air concert) on top of two 4x12 greenbacks. I have done it several times and ABSOLUTELY NOTHING (well almost...) beats the experience. I have done the champ into the 4x12 too and this is a great recording trick for leads, but it is still not a dimed 100w experience as far as bass response and speaker clipping when dimed goes. Maybe it is just psychoacoustics from my side but I like 100W.

Having said that, I always shoot for am amp that is just big enough for the venue to get the response/interaction I look for. I want the amp to scream when I dig into my guitar. Different players look for different amps. Many people use a high gain 100w channelswitcher. I agree that these amps miss the interaction.

Jelle

[RHGraham]

I personally have found amps with quartets to have "generally" had a different overall sonic quality than pairs, but it's slight, and maybe one of those "mileage may vary" deals. They sound a bit more open and harmonically rich to me, not better, but a little different.
Caseyjones may be right in his appraisal of the reasons for that, I don't know, but as a player, there seemed to be a difference to me.

For personal context, I was never a master-volume kinda guy, I always preferred the power-amp tone and drive. The power wasn't really something I dwelled on, but I did like amps with quartets. The trick was finding one I could crank and not overwhelm the stage with. I liked an old ac-30 I had for awhile but it was hard to keep it running.

No offence to the younger crowd is meant, but I do find them hung-up perhaps a bit too much on things like wattage. Myself included whan I was younger. Now it's about tone and being loud enough to put the axe "in the loop". 30, 40, 50 watt amps seem to be more than enough for that to me. My old BFdeluxe certainly humped up enough to make the axe sing. Especially with a 2X12.

Interesting question...

[Johnhenry]

I've worked on stage with some Big Band's and very small band's, i've watched as the music changed from the fifty's to now, A guitar rig has to be very flexible for your average gigging musician, and owning a amp for every occasion would be very expensive, but i do agree with Jelle and Randall that there's just somethin very good about the feeling you get when that 100 watt stack is close to being dimed, there are great sound's to be had with the smaller amp's, but thank the big man for all the possibillity's we're blessed with, Neil Y. and his Delux's, Jimi and a Stack, April wine and 4 Boogie's, Jeff and his 50 watter's, the list goe's on and on, My fav saying is, ( I never met a amp I could't Love, I just loved some better than other's )
Johnhenry

[RHGraham]

My fav saying is, ( I never met a amp I could't Love, I just loved some better than other's )
Johnhenry

There ya go...


April Wine huh?... that's gettin close to my neck of the woods...

Anyway, I had other amps that weren't quartets or 100W that gave that warm n fuzzy when they were hummin, my deluxe certainly was one of them.
But, a stack moves a lotta air too.
For a short while I ran a pair of garnet session-man amps with an extra 4X12 each.
That worked fine.


I really noticed the diffrence, or was made aware of the possible difference, when I used a matchless sc-30 for a while, the difference in the sound, not just the volume, was quite noticeable when it was switched from 4 to 2 tubes.

[LeeMo]

In the early Seventies, I played in a band with another guitarist. We both had Black Beauties. Les Paul Customs. He had a silverface Super Reverb. I had a Super Six Reverb. His was 40 watts 4-10. Mine was 100 watts 6-10. I never could get my tone. I was always too clean and sterile. I never played past 3-4 on the volume. He had his on 7-10 and sounded great.
Listen to The Allman Brothers Live At The Fillmore East. Dicky Betts is on the right with a 100 watt Marshall and two 4-12 sealed cabs with JBL D120's. Duane Allman is on the left with a 50 watt plexi into two 4-12 cabs with the backs off and loaded with either Altec Lansings or Cerwin Vegas, I can't remember which. Dicky was a little bit cleaner. Duane was more on the edge.
That's the difference. In a Dumble, the sound is in the preamp, therefore the master controls the volume. There is very little tonewise added by the power section. Watch Robben Ford. He goes pre out to his rack then returns one side of the stereo return to his power section and the other side to a Fender Twin.

LeeMo

[Bob-I]

reat.
Listen to The Allman Brothers Live At The Fillmore East. Dicky Betts is on the right with a 100 watt Marshall and two 4-12 sealed cabs with JBL D120's. Duane Allman is on the left with a 50 watt plexi into two 4-12 cabs with the backs off and loaded with either Altec Lansings or Cerwin Vegas, I can't remember which. Dicky was a little bit cleaner. Duane was more on the edge.

Actually, Duane used 2 - 50 watt bass heads into 2 4x12's. I was at one of those shows, day 2 of the 3 day stand. The cones on Duane's rig were not aluminum so I'd guess the Cervin Vega's.

[UR12]

Since you guys are digressing. Back in the day in the late 60s and early seventies we didn't have 100kilowatt PA systems to mike everthing up. Those 100 Watt amps were standing on their own. The only things through the PA were vocals. Now days you can easily use a 15 watt amp cranked , miked and amplified by the sound system. If you can't hear it on stage they can put you in your own monitor mix. I can remember that is was nothing to use a Crown DC300 or D150 for the whole PA.

Here is a pic of the band I was playing with in 1974. (I'm the drummer in the right ) It's a wonder I can still hear.

[Allynmey]

Since you guys are digressing. Back in the day in the late 60s and early seventies we didn't have 100kilowatt PA systems to mike everthing up. Those 100 Watt amps were standing on their own. The only things through the PA were vocals. Now days you can easily use a 15 watt amp cranked , miked and amplified by the sound system. If you can't hear it on stage they can put you in your own monitor mix. I can remember that is was nothing to use a Crown DC300 or D150 for the whole PA.

Here is a pic of the band I was playing with in 1974. (I'm the drummer in the right ) It's a wonder I can still hear.

Woohoo Dana, double stacks!!!!

To my ears, 4 power tubes have a different sound than 2. Maybe the slight imbalance adds harmonics. I've played 50w amps side by side with 100w amps. 100watters always were more fun and had "that" sound we can argue about for months. 4 tube el84 amps sound better to me than 2 el84 amps too.

Disclaimer....I love a 100w and (2) 4X12's pointed at me and the feeling of air rushing past me from the speakers. Sweet pain!

[Bob-I]

I can sorta agree with Allynmey. I have a 4x6V6 Dumble clone that I love, 48 watts of sheer tone heaven. I also have a 2x6L6 with almost exactly the same ckt other than the output and it's no where near the tone monster.

That said, one of the greatist ever tones IMHO is Duane Allman and he NEVER used a 4 octal amp. In the studio he used a Fender 2x6L6 and in concert he used a pair of 50 watt Marshalls.

100 watts is just too much power for me though.