Musings on the State of the 5e3 Art in 2024

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psb962
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Musings on the State of the 5e3 Art in 2024

Post by psb962 »

I'm very grateful to all those who have posted their wisdom on this forum regarding the 5e3. Building a 5e3 has been a bucket list item for me for some time and now I have finally done it. To pay back the community that has been such a valuable source of info, I would like to offer the following comments on the 5e3 and apologize if some have already been discussed ad infinitum:

1) Before building anything I built an LTspice model to explore this very interesting circuit. My final 'as built' model is below. With thanks to Rob Robinette I decided to include the following mods in my build and leave the legion of others out there to play around with later:
+470k grid stopper to eliminate blocking distortion at the PI
+470k bleed resistor across first filter cap to dump cap charge in seconds when switched off, while consuming only 300mW when on(V2b)
+100ohm heater virtual center taps installed on V3 between heater and tube cathode to minimize hum
+2x 1N4007 diodes installed on rectifier tube socket to provide a backstop should the rectifier die in a bad way
+2x 470 ohm screen resistors to limit current spikes on the power tube screens
+3 grounds - one for cord ground, one for power amp including center tap and first 2 caps, and one at input sockets for preamp, pots, etc.

2) Using the LTspice model I explored how it responded to a series of signals of increasing p-p voltage to figure out what stages started clipping in what order. I learned that with volumes at 100%, tone at 90%, and signal applied only to the Bright channel, the PI clips first, followed by the preceding gain stage. I didn't manage to get the 6v6s to clip at all. Even the 12AY7 in V1 doesn't clip at +/- 200mV p-p signal, which is a lot unless you are using a pedal. I was surprised to see that a 12AX7 in V1 didn't clip either at those levels. The key takeaway here is that all the sweet harmonics generated by this amp would most likely be coming from V2, the 12AX7, so that would seem to be the tube that matters most, and the one to invest in.

3) The model shows that the tone control is most useful in last 25% of its range.

4) With a Hammond 290BX PT I'm getting 387V B+ from 120.2V house AC. With a Hammond 1790EP OT that drops to 380/378 at the plates of the 6v6s, which results in 14w dissipation per tube. All please be aware that Hammond 1790EP OT does NOT drop in to a 5e3 chassis easily as the hole spacing is off. Hammond doesn't agree, but pretty much all the chassis vendors do. If you have no experience drilling holes in sheet stainless steel, don't even think about trying it with chromed sheet steel - it's very hard.

I still have a ways to go as my cabinet is being built at Mojotone and my speaker (Speed Shop A12Q) arrives tomorrow. Thanks again for the excellent resources.

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psb962
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Re: Musings on the State of the 5e3 Art in 2024

Post by psb962 »

I guess one question I have to ask the community is whether having those 1N4007 diodes on the tube rectifier socket changes the DC voltage output. I know a 5y3 tube rec is supposed to drop about 60 volts - do my numbers look consistent with that or are those diodes I added raising my B+ above what it should be?

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maxkracht
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Re: Musings on the State of the 5e3 Art in 2024

Post by maxkracht »

psb962 wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2024 5:01 pm I guess one question I have to ask the community is whether having those 1N4007 diodes on the tube rectifier socket changes the DC voltage output. I know a 5y3 tube rec is supposed to drop about 60 volts - do my numbers look consistent with that or are those diodes I added raising my B+ above what it should be?
You should drop something like .7v per 1n4007, so not worth worrying about.
lonote
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Re: Musings on the State of the 5e3 Art in 2024

Post by lonote »

That sounds like a nice project. I have never built one myself but it is on the list.

I have never used those diodes, so i can't really speak to how much they might or might not affect the B+. But, looking at some other 5Y3 rectified amps, those voltages look pretty close to what I would expect. In fact, they seem pretty close to what RobRob has listed for his typical 5E3 voltages.

https://robrobinette.com/images/Guitar/ ... ltages.png



Don't know if you have a copy of this rectifier tube chart, but it can be handy.
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psb962
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Re: Musings on the State of the 5e3 Art in 2024

Post by psb962 »

Thanks all. One other thing that has puzzled me is that with 380v on the plate and 22.5 on the cathode, each tube is pulling about 39mA, but if I plot those on the JJ Plate Characteristics graph in their datasheet something is well off. My LTspice model though is very close to those numbers. Is the JJ datasheet drawn for some other conditions like low screen volts, etc, or am I missing something?
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Re: Musings on the State of the 5e3 Art in 2024

Post by pdf64 »

psb962 wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2024 11:34 pm Thanks all. One other thing that has puzzled me is that with 380v on the plate and 22.5 on the cathode, each tube is pulling about 39mA, but if I plot those on the JJ Plate Characteristics graph in their datasheet something is well off. My LTspice model though is very close to those numbers. Is the JJ datasheet drawn for some other conditions like low screen volts, etc, or am I missing something?
Note the absence of screen grid Vg2 information on the charts https://www.jj-electronic.com/images/st ... f/6v6s.pdf
And then note the overall similarity between the JJ plate characteristics chart and the lower chart on p4 of GE 6V6 info https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/093/6/6V6GT.pdf

For reasons unknown, the only characteristics charts that JJ publish in regard of their 6V6 seems to be with it triode connected. Hence they're useless for pentode operation loadlines.
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Re: Musings on the State of the 5e3 Art in 2024

Post by Stevem »

Note that 99.9% of the time when a rectifier blows it takes the fuse out with it so having the diodes there is useless if access to the fuse is internal only, especially if the recto pop’s at a gig!
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pdf64
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Re: Musings on the State of the 5e3 Art in 2024

Post by pdf64 »

Stevem wrote: Mon Oct 14, 2024 1:21 pm Note that 99.9% of the time when a rectifier blows it takes the fuse out with it so having the diodes there is useless if access to the fuse is internal only, especially if the recto pop’s at a gig!
With the silicon diodes in series with its anodes, what failure modes of the valve rectifier could cause it to blow itself and a fuse?
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psb962
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Re: Musings on the State of the 5e3 Art in 2024

Post by psb962 »

One issue I've noticed after a few hours playing this amp is that the volume pots on all my guitars seemed to be scratchy, even when they aren't usually. I realized this might not be dirt, and might be DC on the pots. I pulled the cable out the guitar and hooked up a voltmeter only to discover that I had 330mV across the Bright 1, 190mV across Normal 1, and about 90mV across both 2's. I then went to another amp and measured same and got 9mV, which is effectively zero, which is what I expected.

What could be causing these amounts of DC on the input jacks, both Bright and Normal?
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LOUDthud
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Re: Musings on the State of the 5e3 Art in 2024

Post by LOUDthud »

Low plate Voltage can cause Voltage on the Grid. What is your plate Voltage ?
psb962
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Re: Musings on the State of the 5e3 Art in 2024

Post by psb962 »

LOUDthud wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2024 1:01 am Low plate Voltage can cause Voltage on the Grid. What is your plate Voltage ?
On V1 I have 130V and 121V on the plates. However, the DC on the inputs remains even if I take the V1 tube out. So I don't think it's that.

Since I posted, I found a similar thread on here where the consensus was that the Mojotone eyelet board conducts(!), and plate voltage creeps across the board to the input resistors, which are soldered to the eyelet board. Recommendation was solder the resistors to the jacks and wire direct to V1 grids. Unless anyone can come up with other things I should check first, I guess I will have to go ahead and do that.
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LOUDthud
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Re: Musings on the State of the 5e3 Art in 2024

Post by LOUDthud »

psb962 wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2024 3:02 am
LOUDthud wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2024 1:01 am Low plate Voltage can cause Voltage on the Grid. What is your plate Voltage ?
On V1 I have 130V and 121V on the plates. However, the DC on the inputs remains even if I take the V1 tube out. So I don't think it's that.

Since I posted, I found a similar thread on here where the consensus was that the Mojotone eyelet board conducts(!), and plate voltage creeps across the board to the input resistors, which are soldered to the eyelet board. Recommendation was solder the resistors to the jacks and wire direct to V1 grids. Unless anyone can come up with other things I should check first, I guess I will have to go ahead and do that.
I can't argue with that logic. Good find !
lonote
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Re: Musings on the State of the 5e3 Art in 2024

Post by lonote »

psb962 wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2024 3:02 am On V1 I have 130V and 121V on the plates. However, the DC on the inputs remains even if I take the V1 tube out. So I don't think it's that.

Since I posted, I found a similar thread on here where the consensus was that the Mojotone eyelet board conducts(!), and plate voltage creeps across the board to the input resistors, which are soldered to the eyelet board. Recommendation was solder the resistors to the jacks and wire direct to V1 grids. Unless anyone can come up with other things I should check first, I guess I will have to go ahead and do that.
Unfortunately, seems that might explain it.

I have 2 late 70s Pro Reverbs with chronic conductive boards but they are nearly 50 years old & covered with wax, so they get a pass. Disappointing that is happening with brand new stuff.
pdf64
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Re: Musings on the State of the 5e3 Art in 2024

Post by pdf64 »

It's unfortunate and regrettable that such an unsuitable material is the default board substrate used for builders of Fender type amps.
https://www.justgiving.com/page/5-in-5-for-charlie This is my step son and his family. He is running 5 marathons in 5 days to support the research into STXBP1, the genetic condition my grandson Charlie has. Please consider supporting him!
psb962
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Re: Musings on the State of the 5e3 Art in 2024

Post by psb962 »

For the record, here are the reading taken from each patch lead tip to chassis ground when plugged into respective jacks, tube in our out:

12AY7 out:
Bright 1:188mV
Bright 2: 13mV
Normal 1: 124mV
Normal 2: 9mV

12AY7 in:
Bright 1: 169mV
Bright 2: 11mV
Normal 1: 102mV
Normal 2: 8 mV

As the condition exists with tube in or out, its not the tube.

I then pressed my + probe to the open board between the 2x68k eyelet and 2x100k eyelet and got a solid 190mV, so the board is definitely conducting near the high DC eyelet (254V at the 2x100k).

I've alerted Mojotone.

I'll move the 68ks to the jacks and report back later.
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