The harm in 'upgrading' components?

[duriehill]

Hi all

Just wanted to see what your opinion is on something that has been playing on my mind a little.

I'm currently mid-way through a couple of projects including an ODS. I'm selecting components for the ODS and specifically resistors at the moment.

I've had an interest in amp building for a say 2 years now, so being a relative newbie this is bound to sound naive..

So I guess I'm interested in the science V mojo behind it all..

I want to achieve that Dumble sound with the ODS clone, obviously, but I am wondering why I should NOT for example increase the quality of some components. I would like to build the main board for example by replacing the carbon film resistors with Kiwame instead of the Xions.

I understand replacing components potentially compromises on the original circuit design, but in this particular example I can't see how this could do anything but good?

[Structo]

Well the true believers will tell you that Dumble was very smart when choosing components for his amps.
Others will say he used whatever he had on hand.

He is known to use old transformers, Radio Shack parts, etc.
But possibly putting them in just the right locations where they either matter or don't matter.

Recently I changed some resistors on my 100w ODS.
I had built it with high quality metal films.

I bought some high falootin' Takman carbon film resistors and used them on the slope, preamp grids, OD output, PI grids and cathode, and maybe a few others I can't remember.

It may be my imagination or wishful thinking but I think it sounds a bit more organic, not as fizzy or brittle as it did before the change.
I also have a Dumbleator which I think enhances the amplifier as well.

Also read the interview with Mr. Dumble down a ways in this section. (MUST READ)

[Reeltarded]

If big green things make you feel better about the sound feel free to swap.

Don't swap and swap and swap and swap after you already get a working amp though. That will make the amp a messy and unstable piece of crap.

No experience. Just guessing.

[duriehill]

I am curious as to whether the green guys will produce a more organic sound.

I wonder if Dumble had the green guys to hand at the same price - would he have used them instead..?

[Structo]

Huh?

[Zippy]

Well the true believers will tell you that Dumble was very smart when choosing components for his amps.
Others will say he used whatever he had on hand.

Maybe he was smart about choosing what was on hand. Why invest in the wrong stuff?

[67plexi]

Sometimes a photo is worth a thousand words.
In the photo in the critical areas you will see all 1% resistors.

[ToneMerc]

Well the true believers will tell you that Dumble was very smart when choosing components for his amps.
Others will say he used whatever he had on hand.

Maybe he was smart about choosing what was on hand. Why invest in the wrong stuff?

That is the key!, across all circuit topologies there are patterns. I see the same patterns in his new stuff. However, certain brands of components I dont see and I'm 100% sure it's because he's out of all the "holy grail" components which are no longer available period or when he finds some of them, it's not in a large enough quanity to his liking.

TM

[aflynt]

Well... Instead of shelling out the $$$ for the Kiwame, why not just get the KOA Speer SPR2 series from Mouser? From what I've read, they are the exact same part. Incidentally, I've been using the SP2s on the preamp grids and they are nice and quiet in that location. I've also read reports of them not handling plate voltages well, so you might want to use something else in some spots.

Personally, I've had good luck with the KOA Speer CF1 and MF1 series 1/2 watts lately. FWIW, there were some pics of some Bludotones here a while back and he had CF1s all over the place too.

-Aaron

[hitchcaster]

Well... Instead of shelling out the $$$ for the Kiwame, why not just get the KOA Speer SPR2 series from Mouser? From what I've read, they are the exact same part. Incidentally, I've been using the SP2s on the preamp grids and they are nice and quiet in that location. I've also read reports of them not handling plate voltages well, so you might want to use something else in some spots.

Personally, I've had good luck with the KOA Speer CF1 and MF1 series 1/2 watts lately. FWIW, there were some pics of some Bludotones here a while back and he had CF1s all over the place too.

-Aaron

yes the mouser ones are exactly the same as the kiwames, they just market them different and its basically a hifi scam... the similar pink ones from mouser are great too.... where did you hear about them not handling plate voltages well? i've used them and some MO resistors on plates on a dumble, and have been wondering if they have been causing me problems after playing the amp for a few hours...

[aflynt]

Well... Instead of shelling out the $$$ for the Kiwame, why not just get the KOA Speer SPR2 series from Mouser? From what I've read, they are the exact same part. Incidentally, I've been using the SP2s on the preamp grids and they are nice and quiet in that location. I've also read reports of them not handling plate voltages well, so you might want to use something else in some spots.

Personally, I've had good luck with the KOA Speer CF1 and MF1 series 1/2 watts lately. FWIW, there were some pics of some Bludotones here a while back and he had CF1s all over the place too.

-Aaron

yes the mouser ones are exactly the same as the kiwames, they just market them different and its basically a hifi scam... the similar pink ones from mouser are great too.... where did you hear about them not handling plate voltages well? i've used them and some MO resistors on plates on a dumble, and have been wondering if they have been causing me problems after playing the amp for a few hours...

In some post on this forum. I can't remember who, though.

-Aaron

[hitchcaster]

Well... Instead of shelling out the $$$ for the Kiwame, why not just get the KOA Speer SPR2 series from Mouser? From what I've read, they are the exact same part. Incidentally, I've been using the SP2s on the preamp grids and they are nice and quiet in that location. I've also read reports of them not handling plate voltages well, so you might want to use something else in some spots.

Personally, I've had good luck with the KOA Speer CF1 and MF1 series 1/2 watts lately. FWIW, there were some pics of some Bludotones here a while back and he had CF1s all over the place too.

-Aaron

yes the mouser ones are exactly the same as the kiwames, they just market them different and its basically a hifi scam... the similar pink ones from mouser are great too.... where did you hear about them not handling plate voltages well? i've used them and some MO resistors on plates on a dumble, and have been wondering if they have been causing me problems after playing the amp for a few hours...

In some post on this forum. I can't remember who, though.

-Aaron

andy fuchs talks about it here.... maybe that was it
https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... a&start=15
weird these have some failures as a 2w resistor

[rp]

If you're knowledgeable and designing your own like HAD you can use whatever you like, if you're cloning or are just a sophomore best stick to the original parts especially if still available. Moving laterally won't get you into too much trouble or trying a part quality swap here and there, but vertical shotgun swaps like polyester to polypro or teflon, cc to cf, cf to mf will IME lead to an unhappy clone. But you have to live it to know it, so go ahead. Webword seems universal in both hifi and guitar worlds that the premium Japanese cf's designed to sound like ccs are warm and sweet so you should be alright and maybe better, a lucky discovery. On the other hand maybe the xicons gave the amp a bit of bite or clarity and countered some darkness or softness from somewhere else and HAD used them intentionally. I doubt he gave much of a a hoot, but only HAD would know for sure. I'm still a paint by numbers guy and learned that stringent cloning can get you within a hair of the real thing. But I got there the hard and expensive way.

[bluesfendermanblues]

If you're knowledgeable and designing your own like HAD you can use whatever you like, if you're cloning or are just a sophomore best stick to the original parts especially if still available. Moving laterally won't get you into too much trouble or trying a part quality swap here and there, but vertical shotgun swaps like polyester to polypro or teflon, cc to cf, cf to mf will IME lead to an unhappy clone. But you have to live it to know it, so go ahead. Webword seems universal in both hifi and guitar worlds that the premium Japanese cf's designed to sound like ccs are warm and sweet so you should be alright and maybe better, a lucky discovery. On the other hand maybe the xicons gave the amp a bit of bite or clarity and countered some darkness or softness from somewhere else and HAD used them intentionally. I doubt he gave much of a a hoot, but only HAD would know for sure. I'm still a paint by numbers guy and learned that stringent cloning can get you within a hair of the real thing. But I got there the hard and expensive way.

Right said! you have to live it to know it. Let your ears be the judge.

True for Dumble amps as well as for evaluating various Hi-Fi parts or components.

[talbany]

IMO Component selection is a matter of voicing and taste..There is no better or worse just different..After youv'e built and have experimented with the different brands and types you eventually come up with what works best for you..Like RP says above If your shooting for the classic Dumble sound it would make perfect sense to naturally use the same parts he used in that era Dumble amp..
One more thing in my experiences and IMHO resistor choice is more critical and more obvious with an amp that has an internal overdrive station (like the ODS) than you will in a clean type amp (like an SSS)..this is not to say that resistors don't play a role but for me is not as obvious as using them in an amp with overdrive...Look at how many wonderful sounding Blackface amps there are out there that use Carbon comps..

Some people can hear the difference others not so much!!

Tony