Sozo Mustard Vintage vs Orange Caps

[jckid649]

I just installed a set of these in place of my standard Orange Caps and I don't know if it's just me or what but these things just killed the tone of my express. The richness of harmonics that was present with the Orange Caps are gone and now all I hear is a dull, flat one dimensional sound out of these Sozo's. Has anyone else noticed this?

[redshark]

I have read in lots of threads that Sozo's need 100 hrs. to break-in and then they will deliver the goods but also remember that Ken was very knowledgeable with parts. If you have the correct Orange caps that Ken used they will be the best option for the express, that is for sure!!

[jckid649]

Another thing is that I built this from a Ceriatone kit. I also decided to replace the Holy Grail caps with Sprague Atom caps. I have noticed that with either the Sozo's or the Orange Caps that somehow the amp seems less touch responsive than it did with the original Holy Grail caps. This thing was so sensitive before I could tap the chassis and hear it through the speakers, but now it doesn't do that.

One thing I must note is that when I pulled the Holy Grail Caps they were considerably smaller than the Spragues. The Spragues were so much bigger in fact that I had to turn them sideways to fit them in. Weird. Could any of this be affecting the tone? Also, has anyone noticed that the Sprague's initially seemed somewhat stifled?

[Colossal]

Keep in mind that Orange Drop is a very abused and grossly general term that lacks key information! Orange Drops to most builders mean SBE 715/716P Polypropylene caps. In Trainwreck discussions an orange drop typically refers to Ken Fischer's preferred cap, the Mallory PVC series (Polyester)...now long out of production. In the Dumble world, orange drops usually refer to SBE 225P and 6PS series (polyester).

So if somebody says "I used orange drops" and they are probably a first time modder, I can be pretty sure they've got some 715Ps. But specific orange drops have specific dielectric materials and hence a general tonal center so it's helpful to know which orange drop someone used.

Yes, Sozos can take some time to come into their own. They sound very, very good when they do. Also, which Sozos did you use? The standard yellows or the Vintage series. The standards are brighter sounding.

Sprague ATOM caps have a little tootsie roll of a capacitor in a big pringles can of an outer shell. A lot of wasted space and some marketing hype to keep up the appearance of days foregone of the old ATOMs.

[jckid649]

These are what came in the ceriatone kit. So I'm not imagining things. The holy grails do sound better.

[jckid649]

Those were vintage Sozos btw

[tictac]

Another thing to consider is that the type of resistors you're using can have an impact on how the caps are going to sound as well; esp. the plate load resistor type.

My Dumble-clone ODS sounded too bring and harsh with the polyester Orange Drops... I believe it was because of the newer metal films I was using rather that the vintage Mepco and Phiers resistors used in the original ODS amps. For this amp Sozo's sound great...

my .02

TT

[jckid649]

I have been playing with the bias adjustment and it does seem different settings open it up or stifle it more. But for what eve reason those sprague filter caps just seem more sterile than the holy grails that came with Niks kit. Ive wondered if they just need a break in but the holy grails sounded good right out the gate. That and those OT's make the distortion way too harsh.

[Colossal]

I have been playing with the bias adjustment and it does seem different settings open it up or stifle it more. But for what eve reason those sprague filter caps just seem more sterile than the holy grails that came with Niks kit. Ive wondered if they just need a break in but the holy grails sounded good right out the gate. That and those OT's make the distortion way too harsh.

You might be hearing the difference in ESR between the Spragues and Holy grail electrolytics (to your disappointment). As your Sozos break in, they will soften and distortion will start to take on a softer, more fuzzy smear in the edge of the note with that sonorous midrange. The amp will really open up too. I notice a change in the depth in the soundstage when they break in, very good clarity. I heard a Plexi clone amp that I built for a guy after a year of ownership and was quite surprised how both the transformers and caps had utterly mellowed to produce this smooth brown, clear, lovely roar.

[jckid649]

I have been playing with the bias adjustment and it does seem different settings open it up or stifle it more. But for what eve reason those sprague filter caps just seem more sterile than the holy grails that came with Niks kit. Ive wondered if they just need a break in but the holy grails sounded good right out the gate. That and those OT's make the distortion way too harsh.

You might be hearing the difference in ESR between the Spragues and Holy grail electrolytics (to your disappointment). As your Sozos break in, they will soften and distortion will start to take on a softer, more fuzzy smear in the edge of the note with that sonorous midrange. The amp will really open up too. I notice a change in the depth in the soundstage when they break in, very good clarity. I heard a Plexi clone amp that I built for a guy after a year of ownership and was quite surprised how both the transformers and caps had utterly mellowed to produce this smooth brown, clear, lovely roar.

Do you think the Sprague filter caps will sound better eventually or is there a better choice for filter caps?

[Colossal]

Do you think the Sprague filter caps will sound better eventually or is there a better choice for filter caps?

That's really subjective and terribly hard for me to say. I'd hate to suggest something that might not be to your liking We might have very dissimilar tastes in tone and my advice might be ill-fitting. I personally like and use Vishay/BC Components, F&T, and Nichicons for electrolytics. I have a set of F&Ts in a Trainwreck PCB Express build with 716P polypropylene caps and metal film resistors. It might be what some would call sterile but the Express is such a chameleon. It responds to tube choices, pickup choice, pick attack, EQ, if you have a master volume or not, what signal caps and resistors, what transformers, what wire choices, etc. I have found that amp to be quite punchy and very tight sounding. I like a lot of clarity and I play with pretty fat sounding pickups so I get a really fat wide low end with a crunchy shimmering top end. I think the F&Ts sound pretty good in that amp, perhaps a slightly darker sound. I have a set of the real deal Mallory TC series for my Liverpool and Express purist builds.

[Roe]

...

Do you think the Sprague filter caps will sound better eventually or is there a better choice for filter caps?

I prefer BC Vishay 450v axials. 33+47uf for the mains, 33uf for screens and 22uf for preamp

[eazilyled]

I believe Ceriatone use the 6PS caps as standard in the Expression kits, which are polyester in construction similar to the PVC caps used in the original Express.

I did a crude comparison of the standard Sozo vs PVC caps here in my Ceriatone kit build here:
https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... highlight=

Note that in the thread several people pointed out the flaws of my comparison (poor quality recording, didn't use same test signal etc) which I completely agree with. Also I wasn't comparing 6PS, AND my sozos weren't fully broken in (only 30 hours). But at the time the Sozos seemed dark to me too and I preferred the PVCs. I probably should have played the amp for another 70 hours to see if the break in process would have yielded a better tone, but I simply didn't have the patience and couldn't resist the urge to tinker

I also used BC Components for the electrolytics from the start in my kit as someone recommended them, so I never got to try the Holy Grails. The amp sounds fine with them, but then again I have nothing to compare them against.

If you're not happy and don't want to wait around to see if things improve, why not revert back to the 6PS / Holy Grails? If you're feeling adventurous, you could even go for the PVC / BC Components, but I guess that's more risky as you have no tonal reference for those (in your amp).

[dorrisant]

I would advise to leave what you have in there right where it is until those Sozos burn in all the way. Just my $.02.

When I used them for the first time, they scared me at times... The amp would sound totally different from one day to the next to me and others. We all agreed that after the sound stabilized (somewhere close to 100hrs ?), that the changes were like growing pains but well worth the wait. I wouldn't change them now... never intended to. Sozos-Dale MFs-JJs-Rockster Build.

I put a mix of Sozos and Jupiters in my Express build after I tried the 716ps head to head with Sozos in several projects... I just like the Sozo sound better... but like Colossal said, it's really about the sound you are going for... there is a combo if parts that will get you there.

Once they stabilize, then you know what you've got and whether or not you can live with it.

Tony

[jckid649]

I've been reading past threads about the crappy caps that people have tested in the past and it kind of makes me cautious about throwing down another penny for something I'm not sure about.

Does anyone have any recomendations on what kind of filter caps are best for the Express? I mean yeah I can go to Mouser and spend $40 a pop for original Mallory's but that's crazy. What is out there that is consistent and appropriate for this circuit?