Opinions welome! Various OTs for the Express

[rooster]

rp, you make a good point, eh, and I can tell a lie with the best of 'em on some days. In the end, I wonder how many folks would really appreciate this, you know? For example, I have known about the Stancors since I joined this forum and yet here I am just now getting to it. For me, it is a moment of enlightenment but who's to say how another person might react.

One thing is clear to me, Heyboer did not clone this OT (on a few levels) and I am very confused by this. At this point I can't imagine why Ken didn't dog this more. If he found the Pacific acceptable then it must be a pretty good piece of iron. That said, it has three laminate stacks and not the TWO found on the Stancor. How did this come to be? Was Pacific cloning Heyboer? Was Heyboer cloning Pacific? Geez, why didn't they clone the Stancor?

Maybe this is an opportunity to revisit the OT build and create a better clone, eh?

Lastly, here's something I ran into that I have not seen posted here. It comes from HI-Test Guitars and it's owner, Gregg Levy. I have never seen this before......how did I miss it? Here he debunks the whole Tungsram thing, a tube most of us here think is a definite V1 choice. Crazy.

[Bob S]

Very interesting.
Thanks for sharing - much appreciated here.

[M Fowler]

Yes I've read that tube thing before and also what others have said should be used in Express amps.

I find most of the TAG info on TW's to be questionable in my mind and decided years ago not to let all that sway how I build one or what tubes I use.

Also, once your TW clone is finished then you go back and tune until you enjoy it's tone not what is on paper. Isn't that what Ken F. did. Tube rolling takes days to complete. Speaker cab rolling is back breaking and trying out different guitars and 18' long cords a winding experience.

All for the sake of tone.

[sagitt]

I know this is off topic,do any of you have blown Stancor A-3801 OT and wants to sell it?been winding some transformers by myself and I really like to desassemble one and look inside... https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... highlight=

[rp]

I'm waiting for RJ and others to chip in on Roosters observations. I always figured all those TW Express clone OTs were blueprinted from a real Stancor, working or dead. The black ones show up for $100-$150 now, they used to show up for $60 couple years go. I'm really surprised no one around here sacrificed one for a perfect clone. So, have all the Express clones been built w/ chopped liver? As MF said chopped liver's good too but people do the lazy loop, dish out lucre for Mallorys, hunt years for Buds and flea clips and no one accurately blueprinted the Stancor

[geetarpicker]

I have an original '89 Express w/Pacifics, and an earlier '85 with the grey Stancor OT and black aftermarket (Ampeg?) PT. That said the earlier amp is smoother and fatter sounding, and other than brand of pots it's no different circuit wise than my later one. Well, it does have an 820 ohm grid stopper resistor on the input of the 2nd grid on V1 where my '89 has no grid stoppers. For some things the '89 is still the better amp (more aggressive, more mids, more wild overall) but it depends on the style one is going for. Still...the '85 has a smoothness and thickness that sets is even more apart from most clones which tend to be in the opposite direction. The '85 is more forgiving overall, more of a bluesy sounding slightly lower gain Express.

I did build two clones of my '89 about 6-7 years back, and I used Mallorys, NOS chassis, NOS tube sockets, a few other NOS period correct parts, and new at the time Pacifics. These two amps replicate the feel and response of my '89 quite closely (more so than any other clone I've experienced) though they are still a tiny bit harsher and brighter. I'm sure many would be quite pleased with them even up against an original, but they still aren't close enough for me to part with my original '89 either.

The smoothness and fat nature of my '85 might be even more difficult to replicate however I haven't really tried..... Still I did add an extra parallel .002 cap after the 2nd stage in one of my clones and that helps it get a little fatter, but you then have to be more careful on the bass knob. My '85 just keeps going fatter, longer for lack of better terms. Even the bass knob on my '85 seems to have more range, though the overall bass pot value reads just about the same as my '89 and the tone stack measures out the same also.

Just last year I did obtain a NOS grey Stancor a3801 and I plan to eventually test it in one of my two clones but it's taking me a while to find the time to get on it. Still...in my case picking up the NOS Stancor was good insurance to have around for my '85 just in case.

[Richie]

I was talking to a friend that has a JTM 45 combo, as we were talking it came up that for some reason he said the tap that sounded or worked the best in that amp for him was the 8 ohm tap. And he explained why he felt that way. Maybe it was the speakers or output tubes the amp had, or who knows, And I trust this guys ears. Just thought i'd throw that out there..

[cap217]

I am interested in this discussion for the rocket xformer. I have an ac30hw that I want to change the OT on but I dont know what to go with. Lyle Caldwell did the Pisonic mods on my amp but kept the stock transformers. He recommends the MM wooden OT as does Don Butler. That got me thinking of maybe trying a Pacific from RJ instead.

I talked to RJ and all that info is on this site. But I talked to MM and they told me that the KT-TW-OT is an option but if more clean. Here is the response from them:

Actually Ken used anything he could get his hands on and actually used us for a long time after Pacific. Those were all custom designs that we will not sell out of respect to Ken per our owner Sergio who was a close friend to Ken.
The TW-KF-OT sounds amazing and is our own design on what we thought would be the ideal best sounding Trainwreck.
They are different. The Vox OT’s nail the Vox tonality while the TW-KF-OT is still chimey, is more neutral and transparent. Really dynamic in that sense.





So now, in an am30hw, has anyone used a Pacific? I am trying to decide between a Pacific, MM-TW, MM Wooden, or the MM Hayddon.

[Drew.12345]

Cap217,
I have used both the MM-KF-OT and the MM Woden OT. These are both excellent pieces of iron and I don't think you can go wrong with either. The MM Woden OT is one of my favorite OT's and I have used it in a Stangray, DC-30 and a Z wreck with great results.
That being said, I have now replaced the MM Woden OT in my Z-wreck with the MM-KF-OT after removing from my express from earlier in this thread. The MM-KF-OT offers a broad spectrum of tones where bass is crisp and full and the highs are nice and chimey without being shrill and when pushed breaks up a lot easier than the MM Woden. The MM Woden iron is janglely and chimey and makes my guitars sound almost acoustic like and has a great I would say 3D swirl as well.

I have nothing but great things to say about both OTs, but IMHO it just depends what you want to achieve - a little jangle with some hair on your tone (KF-OT) or if you are looking for clean chime and 3D swirl of a great AC-30.

Can't lose with either.

Andrew

[rooster]

Haha, Andrew, excuse me for asking this but I need some explanation? Is the MM KF OT equipped with a 6600 primary? I'm confused here, and maybe wondering why you used this in an Express, and now in a quad EL84 amp. I am very naive regarding the MM iron and under the impression they do not list such things as the primary. For what amp did they recommend this OT?

Also, BTW, I'm ordering the Pacific Express OT from RJ tomorrow and once it's installed I will give you my impressions. I may even try the MM OT before my quest is over.

[Drew.12345]

Rooster

No prob.
The MM KF-OT is equipped with both 6k6 and 5k2 primaries.
I used the 6k6 in my express and compared it to RJ's express iron and I also used the 5k2 primaries and compared it to RJ's Liverpool iron as well.

The primary specs are posted on their webpage for this particular OT.
In speaking with MM they recommend this iron for anything trainwreck.

Andrew

[rooster]

Andrew, hi. I sent you a PM and I hope it leaves my Outbox sometime soon...

But in the meantime, do you know the story on the MM KF OT? Here my question addresses what I heard here, namely that MM would not share the KF tranny specs. (Did I read this about the Pacific iron instead? Which seems really wrong because they do sell the KF designed trannys....) Hm... I'm trying to understand this. Does this mean they will currently produce and sell the trannys but not post the specs? Or does this mean they will die with the tranny info and never produce another KF spec'd tranny? Since they posted the specs on this OT, I'm very confused. Of course I did read on the MM site that they did produce some iron for Ken in the last few years of Ken's life. (Something like that, correct?)

Perhaps does this mean they ARE selling a KF spec'd tranny or two? Or - another possibility perhaps - are they cloning the Pacific tranny and selling that? Or, if Ken contracted with them like MM says, did he just give MM the same specs he gave Pacific and Heyboer?

WTF, you know?

BTW, does your MM piece have the three laminate stacks, identical to the Heyboer and the Pacific?

And then one last question or two to any forum member in the know. Did this forum or somebody connected to it create the first tapped OT - or was this from Ken? Is the same true for the PT? I ask because for some reason, I thought this was an idea that originated here, because of the variety of specs for the various TWs.

Oh, and then one last thing.. Is Moose's (Chris) site still up somewhere even though he doesn't sell the iron any longer? Does anybody recall if he - when he got to the end of his run - have Heyboer mix it up on the steel in the OT? I seem to remember that he switched from M6 to M26 or M27 but I can't recall exactly. Thanks.

[RJ Guitars]

I have one of the "Moose Era" Heyboer tranny with the dual taps, as well as a few of the later ones. Near the end of his transformer days he came out with the "Vintage" series output trannies... When he posted he was going to close his tranny sales I contacted him about continuing on with the distribution of the Heyboer trannies. He was pleased to have me take this on and offer me his blessing... Before he removed the info from his website I made sure I had a copy of the spec sheets. I think the attached chart should give you the info you were asking about concerning the steel. rj

[Colossal]

Rooster, I don't have much time to comment at the moment but will say that the Mercury TW-KF-OT is definitely not a clone of Pacific iron. The OT has two primaries; 5k2 and 6k6, and 4/8/16R secondaries. IME, I hands down preferred the 6k6 taps in an EL34 Express. I am building an Express and a Liverpool right now and both amps have the Mercury PT and OT. Will post photos when they are done. I have to wire and install the boards.

As for the dual secondary PT specs, I believe Ingrid has a PT with dual secondaries and they (260VAC and 5VAC) are cut and taped off, IIRC.

[rooster]

Ah, RJ, that is the page alright. I never heard the 'vintage' style versions, and mine are the M27 dual tap versions. I can also add that the MT version is also M27. Which is to say they are virtually identical. Well, maybe there is something different regarding the interleaving, I wouldn't know.

RJ, since you don't sell the Heyboer any longer, besides MT, who is? I do remember now that you took over the Heyboer thing from Moose. Did Edcor just fit your needs better? Eh, I know you can't sell it all, of course.

Colossal, that is good info and I did not know that. So Ken is the originator of the tapped TW PT and OT? Can I put this to bed?