Liverpool Power Tranny

Express, Liverpool, Rocket, Dirty Little Monster, etc.

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morcey2
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Re: Liverpool Power Tranny

Post by morcey2 »

Buschman wrote:Thanks sky. Where did you come up with the 418vdc figure? I thought 300v ct off of the pt would put me in the 320-340 vdc range.
Great doc from hammond:
http://www.hammondmfg.com/pdf/5c007.pdf

300VAC * 1.4 = 420VDC

That's for silicon rectifiers. If you wanted 320-340V, run it with a 5Y3: (300VAC * 1.1 = 330VDC)
5AR4/GZ34 = ~1.3 factor (390V)
5U4 = ~1.2 factor (360V)
5V4 = ~1.25 factor (375V)

The problem with that is it will significantly change the feel of the amp, introducing a lot of sag. Another option would be to put a VVR circuit in it and have an upper limit on the voltage by adding another resistor between the HT line and the control pot.

Matt.
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dartanion
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Re: Liverpool Power Tranny

Post by dartanion »

Remember that these are theoretical values. What you actually get in the circuit matters too. I seem to get about B+ 415V with no tubes in my Express builds, and around 395-405V with tubes, with a 385 - 395 plate voltage range.
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Phil_S
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Re: Liverpool Power Tranny

Post by Phil_S »

skyboltone wrote:
Buschman wrote:Thanks sky. Where did you come up with the 418vdc figure? I thought 300v ct off of the pt would put me in the 320-340 vdc range.
Good question. I'm using the solid state rectifier value here of 1.4 times the ac voltage with a capacitor input filter. Using a tube rectifier will yield lesser voltages. I suggest you download the power supply design PSU designer II from here:
http://www.duncanamps.com/software.html

This is a great learning tool and will give you VERY close to real outputs.
I forget more than I learn. I was doing well in this area for a while and now it's feeling foreign again. In my TWX variant, 6AQ5 outputs, I am using a 275-0-275 PT that results Va=~335. 275 * sqrt(2) = 385. What gives here? Where am I dropping 50V?
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skyboltone
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Re: Liverpool Power Tranny

Post by skyboltone »

It depends an awful lot on the way the transformer is made also Phil. You've got a "soft" transformer. I know for a fact that the Hammond Organ AO-35 power transformer, 300-0-300 unloaded, will, when using a SS rectifier and a pair of 6BQ5s, burden to around 345 VDC. When you measure the HT winding from end to end it measures 265 ohms. A comparable "hard" wound transformer will measure about 70 ohms. It will yield the 1.4 voltage.

Once again, use the Duncan software and experiment with the transformer impedence variable. It will tell the story.

Oh, and how well do the 6AQ5's hold up at 335? What do you run on the screens? These tubes are supposed to max out at 275VDC

Dan
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Aurora
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Re: Liverpool Power Tranny

Post by Aurora »

Would someone care to spec the optimum transformer and DC data for Liverpool - or Rocket....with current draw, please?
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Phil_S
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Re: Liverpool Power Tranny

Post by Phil_S »

skyboltone wrote:It depends an awful lot on the way the transformer is made also Phil. You've got a "soft" transformer. I know for a fact that the Hammond Organ AO-35 power transformer, 300-0-300 unloaded, will, when using a SS rectifier and a pair of 6BQ5s, burden to around 345 VDC. When you measure the HT winding from end to end it measures 265 ohms. A comparable "hard" wound transformer will measure about 70 ohms. It will yield the 1.4 voltage.
This is new information for me, so thanks very much. It just hadn't occurred to me. I don't recall the ohms on this particular PT. It is from www.musicalpowersupplies.com. If I get it on the bench, maybe I'll remember to check.
Once again, use the Duncan software and experiment with the transformer impedence variable. It will tell the story.
I have it.

I've got a "new" old tranny on the bench now, trying to figure what to do with it. HT is at ~675vac on the outer legs without a load; ~178 ohms. I'll be putting in into my test "apparatus" to see if I can estimate mA rating. The Duncan suggests it is abotu 100mA. That seems low by the eyeball method, but I see how the winding R affects the whole thing. Very interesting.
Oh, and how well do the 6AQ5's hold up at 335? What do you run on the screens? These tubes are supposed to max out at 275VDC
Dan
Well, Dan, now you have forced me to check my recorded results. Va=341, Vg2=335, Vg=-26.9; I guess I'm getting almost 18W out of them? Or is it half that? Anyhow, I don't play out and this amp probably doesn't see more use than 4-5 hours per week, if that much. I'm well aware of the design center spec. I confess that I don't know how they will hold up, but the voltage doesn't seem to bother them. I've got a small pile of 6AQ5's (maybe 50 of 'em), so I'm not concerned about toasting a pair or two. The Sylvania brand tubes seem to be the most robust. GE and RCA are in second place. If I were gigging this amp, I'd get a different PT and try to knock down Va to around 300V. I've got a Gibson Scout (GA17-RVT) that operates in this range and it is a great sounding amp.

As an aside, you recently chided us (no offense meant) in the discussion about dropping B+...I bought an IRF840 to install in this amp as a cheap way of dropping B+, but never got around to it. I will probably just leave it alone. I completed the amp in late February and my interest in tweaking it has gone south.

The TONE on this amp is just like what I hear from the other samples, though I'd guess more discriminating ears might say otherwise.

Incidentally, cutting the supply ladder 18K2 resistor to 9K1 brought the pre-amp voltages right in line with Francesca.
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skyboltone
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Re: Liverpool Power Tranny

Post by skyboltone »

Phil_S wrote:Well, Dan, now you have forced me to check my recorded results. Va=341, Vg2=335, Vg=-26.9; I guess I'm getting almost 18W out of them? Or is it half that? If I were gigging this amp, I'd get a different PT and try to knock down Va to around 300V. I've got a Gibson Scout (GA17-RVT) that operates in this range and it is a great sounding amp.

I completed the amp in late February and my interest in tweaking it has gone south.

The TONE on this amp is just like what I hear from the other samples, though I'd guess more discriminating ears might say otherwise.

Incidentally, cutting the supply ladder 18K2 resistor to 9K1 brought the pre-amp voltages right in line with Francesca.
That's good information Phil. Fender always has operated 6V6's out of spec and the 6AQ5 is a 6V6 in a little envelope. I've got about a dozen of them myself and will fool around with a pair one of these Saturdays. You'ld think that with 6 Saturdays a week I'd get something done. Now I know why all my retired friends complain of never having any time; what with naps and the internet......
I do know about the tweaking interest getting frayed around the edges. I've got a Dumble build going on two years. I hate that thing. Wrecks are just so unfussy by comparison. Anyway, I've used all the tricks on B+ lowering. I've just concluded after trying everything that I won't fool with it again unless it's with Dana's VVR. For a guy building a first or second amp, and limited funds, a wrong voltage transformer is false economy.

Dan
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Seek immediate medical attention if you suddenly go either deaf or blind.
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