Train Wreck vs Bad Cat

[ampdoc1]

I agree with the latest posts. I built my first Express clone in '03-04, and while i loved the tone, there was too much tube hiss. So, i replaced the first two preamp tubes with 12AY/AT 7s, and added a gain stage at the end of the string with that unused 1/2 triode. Then a couple of years ago i made a DumbWreck, using some of the circuits from d_mbl_ and Trainwreck, with a CF at the end of the preamp string. Cool amp, great feedback characteristics with a fuller sound than the Express.

My last build was a copy of a K_m_t C_nc_rd_. I just wanted to see what it sounded like, and let some friends play it. Good amp, but not as "lively" as my first Express. I certainly wouldn't recommend anyone pay the asking price on one of these. IMHO, it'd be a good value at ~$1500.

There are people everywhere who will use information in the wrong fashion. But I'd like to think that most of us here, just like seeing EVERYTHING that's out there and using new (sometimes not) information and ideas to spur us on to great new sounds.

ampdoc

[RHGraham]

Credit where credit is due would help a whole lot in this, and many other industries frankly... but... +1 on Ampdoc's and Fischerman's posts...

I find it interesting to watch which folks spend a lotta time jumpin up and down and basically yelling "look at me, look at me!" the most... they often are doing precisely what they're accusing other folks of and are essentially spending a whole lotta time trying to make sure the spotlight is in somebody else's direction. Wonder why that is...

Been out of the loop for a while, but now that I'm back, all I see is STILL nothing more than variations on a theme... a marshall, a fender, a vox, whatever. Guys I find that generally do the best work are also the ones secure enough to share freely for the most part and seem secure in what they do. Guys like Ampdoc as a matter-of-fact.

Entertaining thread in any case...

[drz400]

It is my opinion that there is not very much is new and changing a few parts here and there really doesnt change what an amp is really based off of. You can see that with a Rectumfrier and SLO100 PLEASE! the lead circuit is such a rip and from a company that is totally patent happy. However.... what I dont think is correct is to copy a circuit layout. Most of the time the layout can be improved upon but some people want every wire in the exact same place. That is when it becomes a knock off, for home use that is OK but not for production or resale.

[ryanf]

First of all, everything is a clone of another thing, one way or another. Market should decide what amps sell and what ones do not. If an amp builder charges twice as much for his amp than a copy, his amp better be twice as good, or nobody will buy it.

I dont know why this is such a big deal with amps, considering that half of the guitars out there are blatant copies of the Stratocaster. Of course Gibson thinks that they are special in that nobody can copy their designs (especially when the copy is cheaper and better but thats different.

Most of us cloners would never buy the original. I'm cloning a Soldano and I would never pay 3000 bucks for an amp, because its not worth it. Soldano is not losing a customer because I decided to build my own.

[dave g]

I'm cloning a Soldano and I would never pay 3000 bucks for an amp, because its not worth it.

Buying a $3000 amp might not be something that somebody who builds amps would do, but I wouldn't say it's "not worth it." The fact of the matter is that for the vast majority of guitarists, it IS worth it. When I go and decide to build myself an amp, I know that it's probably gonna cost me about $1000 in materials. However, if I were running a business selling amps, I know that I would have to include labor in with the costs; which, if you pay yourself a reasonable hourly wage, can easily 'cost' just as much as the materials themselves. Then there's your actual profit margin (typically about 30-45%), and THEN there's dealer markup (another 30-45%) - do the math and it turns out that $3000 is actually pretty reasonable...

[CaseyJones]

If I were running a business selling amps, I know that I would have to include labor in with the costs; which, if you pay yourself a reasonable hourly wage, can easily 'cost' just as much as the materials themselves.

No insult intended and I'm not callin you an idiot but that's idiot math.

It's a common public perception: "Build it and they will come". I talk to a lot of amp builders who assume that just because someone's clone is selling for $1500 to $3500 that their clone will sell for the same money. It simply ain't true. Even if your clone is a fantastic copy of the original you're still an unknown builder at startup so you still need to build a repuration. Once you build a reputation you still need an efficient marketing machine. Once you have an efficient marketing machine you can't screw up, not ever. If you screw up there are all kinds of hyper negative mofo's like me out there waitin' to call you on it. I'll call you on it because I despise the part of this biz that's all about the hype, if you're walkin' around sayin' "I'm great, I'm great, I'm f'ckin' great" you damn well better be great.

FORGET ABOUT makin' a reasonable wage buildin' amps. Just forget about it. Everyone and his dog is gettin' into amp building, what kills it is some joker who works a regular job and makes a good wage at his regular job, for him it's a "hobby". So he'll buy a set of parts and build up an amp then sell the amp for what he's got into it, after all it's just his "hobby". What the harm in that? Well, the harm in that is there's only so many hours in a day and I have to make a few pennies from maybe eight or ten of 'em but now my clone is only worth what the parts cost because Joe Yuppie Hobbyist just set the price point for that amp at what the parts cost. With the internet Joe Yuppie's price becomes the benchmark just about instantly.

SO: The real thing continues to be worth some bucks but the clones slice what's left of the pie into ever thinner slices.

Then there's your actual profit margin (typically about 30-45%), and THEN there's dealer markup (another 30-45%) - do the math and it turns out that $3000 is actually pretty reasonable...

DEALER MARKUP?! Here's what's happenin' to dealer markup: Yer local mom and pop music shop has to price stuff at Musician's Fiend or GC prices because that's what the internet has set the price point at. Internet based operations don't have the overhead mom and pop do and they're capable of much larger volume. I'm right up the street from an outfit that used to have a real storefront with all the associated overhead, they went internet only. Their operation is all but invisible in physical reality but it's highly visible in virtual reality. They're in cheap industrial space right now, you can't find their physical location unless you know it's there.

SO: Here's what happens. Mom and Pop don't want to know about my spendy handbuilt amp, they just don't. They can sell two or three hundred Squier beginner paks with the imported guitar and amp for every professional amp they sell. Boutique stuff? FUGGETTABOUDIT!! But you're correct about the 30% to 50% markup a high end shop needs to charge. They need to stock a bucks up inventory and they've got the bucks up location where the bucks up clientele walks in... walks in with bucks.

Who suffers in all this? Well, it ain't easy to be an amp builder but in the long run musicians could get a better deal, too. It would be great if I could offer musicians truly outstanding gear at affordable prices. A vintage Strat at $35k makes no sense as a musical instrument. A Trainwreck at $28k makes no sense as a tool to play music with.

A $3k clone makes perfect sense if you do the math... now try and get $3k!

[islandamp]

That building a clone for personal use is fine, anyone have a schematic or ideas on how to build a Suhr badger or Guytron 20? On the point of building someone elses amp, I fully intend to be in the amp business very soon and if a few home builders from the forums want to clone my amps, I'd be flattered. I seriously doubt that Randall and the others are going hungry due to my homebrews since I can't imagine under what circumstances I would have paid them $2000-$4000 for an amp anyway.

[dartanion]

I can build an amp that would be just as good if not better than production amps, doesn't mean I will be able to sell them for Two Rock prices. I cannot, however, at this juncture build a guitar as good as a PRS, so I'm stuck buying one or learning to build them that good. Anyway, for the time, resources, and effort that most folks put into learning this hobby, $3k for a production amp doesn't sound that unreasonable if they are not up to the challenge.

It is still dumbfounding to me that folks will shell out $3k -$5k on a guitar, then bitch about amps of the same caliber being so expensive.

[CaseyJones]

That building a clone for personal use is fine, anyone have a schematic or ideas on how to build a Suhr badger or Guytron 20?

That's another curious internet assumption, the assumption that if something is cool

A) someone has built a copy of it already

B) they're willing to share that information with you

C) you deserve to have access to that information

and

D) you have the chops to get through it

I can build an amp that would be just as good if not better than production amps, doesn't mean I will be able to sell them for Two Rock prices. I cannot, however, at this juncture build a guitar as good as a PRS, so I'm stuck buying one or learning to build them that good. Anyway, for the time, resources, and effort that most folks put into learning this hobby, $3k for a production amp doesn't sound that unreasonable if they are not up to the challenge.

I can build a PRS clone that would fool the experts. I can't see why I'd want to, what I'd be doing is emulating something that's made on CNC machinery... by hand. Besides, I don't like PRS. It's one of those feel things, give me a 50 year old Strat and I'm grinnin'. Give me a PRS and I'm scratchin' my head. Give me a Parker, that's something trick enough I can't clone it in my kitchen sink.

Every handwired amp I've built would smoke anything off the shelf. Maybe I just have good instincts 'cuz my stuff don't hiss, my stuff don't hum. I have just a twinge of Fuchs envy because Andy whips up a pretty slick package. So, o.k., I can build something as good or better than just about anything else out there. Except maybe a Fuchs!

It is still dumbfounding to me that folks will shell out $3k -$5k on a guitar, then bitch about amps of the same caliber being so expensive.

Some people can bitch about anything and everything. Take me for example, give me titties and beer and I'll still find something to grumble about!