6 string guitar and Thiele cabs

[pjd3]

Hello,

As I knock around whether to build a couple of Thiele cabs for a future project (another stereo system but for Baritone tuned up to D but with lots of low C's),

I get wary of some of the descriptions that surround Thiele cabs. On one hand, I like the idea of supported lows and a smooth response up to a certain point but, when I see written, "usable frequency range 60-1600 Hz", I have no idea what then happens above the 1600 Hz. Do the frequencies above that begin to fall off?
And it they do, how rapidly can we expect that to happen? Do we take a big hit on those 4K to 6K frequencies that give a guitar the nice chime, presence and sparkle that make things nice? (Nice, in my opinion).

Things have changed a bit, though. My DIY Tele baritone is now tuned up to D (brought the guitar to life) but, since it will often be in Orkney and DADGAD tuning likely most of the time, I can expect to see the low E string be tuned down to C and/or D, most of the time. I don't know if the Thiele 806 cab is fit to support notes that low, and, if there will also be a reasonable range of highs left to retain nice chime and sparkle (4-6Khz or so).

Am I looking at a better solution say, if I built a couple of the 15" speaker Thiele designed cabs to reach the low C and perhaps also add an open back little cab on top with a 10" speaker? If you were looking to do what I'm looking for, now would you go about it? I assume the accurate answer will have to come from folks with a bit of experience with having and using Thiele cabs. For my application, I like a lot of what I hear as being the benefits of these cabs but, I think I need to also be aware of the limits also.

Thank you for your input,
Best,
PJD3

[nuke]

The cabinet controls the low-end response, and has very little influence on anything above 1khz. That's really up to the driver, and hf-response could extend surprisingly.

In the HiFi world, there are enthusiasts of single-driver loaded horn speaker systems, such as the Lowther driver. A single driver covers the full range, and they can sound really good.

For the T/S enclosure with say, an EV12L, you'll get whatever bass the cabinet is tuned to and the driver can do, and whatever high-end the driver is capable of by itself.

[pjd3]

Thanks Nuke,

And that is what I originally suspected so was oddly surprised hearing someone say "a significant drop after 1600 Hz". The Thiele cab build does specify a 60 - 1600 Hz "usable range". I thought that was strange.

OK, so being that is the case, I think I can put that little rumination to rest.

Thank you,

PJD3

[pdf64]

.. The Thiele cab build does specify a 60 - 1600 Hz "usable range". I thought that was strange. ...

A link to that info might be helpful.
I suppose that frequency range refers to the cab being loaded with the driver it's been designed for.
A different driver will almost certainly have different thiele characteristics and a different high frequency response.

Just to be clear, a given thiele cab design is only intended for the specific driver it's been designed for.
From the perspective of the response linearity, it won't be optimal for a different driver.

[pjd3]

Thanks pdf64,

I am understanding that the TL806 is designed for EVM12 and those with the same specs, having 1.3 cubic feet of air volume. I may have issued winning that war with the boss but, the Eminence EM12 seems to be a good candidate, sounds good to my ears and I believe has the proper characteristics/specifications to work the way it supposed to in a TL806 cab. Speakers like the Eminence EM12 claim a basic frequency range of 60 to 4.8K or so. Thats why the "60-160" of usable range in the Thiele papers mystified me.

From listening to some well captured vids of that speaker, I am hearing enough HF content to fulfill my tone application. I was initially worried over something in the TL806 causing a roll off and robbing allot of the high freq information but, I take it now that that doesn't happen. It didn't make sense that that would happen, anyways.

Thanks,

Best,
Phil

[lonote]

You might want to look into the fEARful bass cab plans that were/are out there, as those have an extended range as they include a mid driver.

I was an early adopter of the TL cabs and gigged for decades (on bass) with a pair of TL606s, which I still have. I also used many TL806s for PA, monitors, etc, over the years. Among the best cabs ever...

BUT, that said, the Greenboy fEARful lightweight bass cabinet plans hit the interweb 15 years or so ago & I built a couple of those, both 12" & 15". Even though I had always been a die-hard 15 guy, I sold the 15 & now use a fEARful 12/6 cube for dates. Huge bass & lightweight.

It uses a Eminence Kappalite 12 & an Eminence Alpha 6A mid driver, along with a crossover that was designed to go with it & is easy to build.

Thinking this might be better suited to a bari guitar than the TLs, as much as I love them.


PS

After some Googling, it seems there is a new line, the Fearless (know nothing about them) & the old fEARful plans are not all in one place, as they used to be.

This place still sells knocked-down fEARful cab kits & the plans are still there, you just might have to dig a little.

https://www.speakerhardware.com/fearful ... -cabs-faq/

[pjd3]

Hello Ionnote.

Thanks, these are quite interesting.

My interest in using a Thiele cab was not so much to get a whole lot of extension, but to give the lowest of notes a good solidity and presence. Since this baritone was exclusively built for playing classical and Celtic like fingerstyle, I set out to ensure that the moving higher lines and melodies had a very strong low note support, in the same way a piano or harp does. I didn't want to chance the lower 2 strings becoming indistinct, boomy or smeared, which I hear happen a bit on standard 6-string. I'm historically a weekend warrior classic rock guy that plays a Strat and homemade 20 watt plexi with pedal board. But, during the lockdown I decided to find an entirely new type of style, acoustic based, that was challenging and beautiful. I stumbled upon some old Celtic songs that were all in either Orkney or DADGAD tuning, which means lots of low D's, Eb, and maybe even as low as C sometimes, but never a true A or B baritone. Although the guitar came out way beyond my expectations, I found that it was a bit murky in normal baritone tunings, and when I tuned it up to D, it came to life, sparkly, deep interaction between strings, dancing harmonics, it was just way more inspiring. So, now the baritone centers around D but with the lowering of the A and E strings for either Orkney or DADGAD tuning, most of the time with a capo on the 3rd, 5th or 7th frett. So, again the whole consideration of the Thiele was in assuming that the lowest of notes will be potent, solid and apparent.

But, like you said, it doesn't have to the a Thiele. It can be whatever meets the desired application so I will be looking into the cab plans you showed. I like the idea of having a little midrange speaker in their to ensure there is some strong sparkle. I plan to be using alot of prudently applied time based effects, chorusing, ambent reverb, delay etcc, and want all those high dancing harmonics to be well presented.

Thanks for the link, and I will be taking a closer look at that for sure.

Best
Phil D

[Colossal]

As I mentioned to you in the other thread you posted on this, I built a (massive) bass amp for a friend and it is paired with two 15" TL606 Thiele cabs each loaded with Eminence 15" speakers. The amp has four 6550s running in ultralinear for about 140Wrms. The entire power supply is choke filtered (not choke input, CLC). That setup is very punchy, very clear, and very tight. It is both heard and felt.

You might consider trying the Larry Carlton approach for your time based effects, micing your guitar cab and sending that to your effects, then out to a pair of powered monitors.

[lonote]

As I mentioned to you in the other thread you posted on this, I built a (massive) bass amp for a friend and it is paired with two 15" TL606 Thiele cabs each loaded with Eminence 15" speakers. The amp has four 6550s running in ultralinear for about 140Wrms. The entire power supply is choke filtered (not choke input, CLC). That setup is very punchy, very clear, and very tight. It is both heard and felt.

I'll bet that is a great sounding bass rig.

The TLs were small & lightweight when I was in my 20s & 30s ... not so much these days.

I had occasion to play through my cabs with a Blonde Showman, but never took that setup to a date.

[Colossal]

As I mentioned to you in the other thread you posted on this, I built a (massive) bass amp for a friend and it is paired with two 15" TL606 Thiele cabs each loaded with Eminence 15" speakers. The amp has four 6550s running in ultralinear for about 140Wrms. The entire power supply is choke filtered (not choke input, CLC). That setup is very punchy, very clear, and very tight. It is both heard and felt.

I'll bet that is a great sounding bass rig.

The TLs were small & lightweight when I was in my 20s & 30s ... not so much these days.

I had occasion to play through my cabs with a Blonde Showman, but never took that setup to a date.

The TL606 1x15s are quite substantial. Yeah, the rig really hits you in the gut. It is very harmonically rich. Oh, I added the Steel String post phase inverter grid drivers as well, so with Ultralinear it probably adds to the clarity. The OT is a Dynaco A-451 clone. Both PT and OT are 23lbs each

I hear you on the weight. I have two Avatar Forte 2x12 vertical cabs as my daily drivers (each loaded with a Fane A60 and F70). Fantastic sounding cabinets but the weight is not fun anymore. Thinking of going down to a pair of Thiele TL806 1x12s for when I have to travel. Sadly, Avatar quit making the 1x12 Forte cab.

[pjd3]

Thank you for reiterating on that Colossal,

I do infact recall you talking about this and even posting pics. VEry nice looking cabs as I recall.

My approach has shifted on this a little bit. My first approach was to be a specific classic tube amp, like a stereo Fender or Marshall but, the baritone guitar did not sound right to me through either of these kind of amps, which, surprised me alot. I was left a bit dismayed. But then, I was handed a Fender Tonemaster modelling pedal so I could create some good patches for our Beatles tribute band (4EverFab.net). He's a bit challenged on things like that so I volunteered.

I decided to try a bunch of amp models with my baritone one night and, much to my surprise, I loved the way it sounded through the Vox AC30 model, on super Clean. It was sweet, chimey, took away bad frequencies and enhanced good ones. I was delighted because now I know what direction I wanted to go in.

Heres a link to my little Soundcloud if you are ever curious what the baritone sounds like into a Tonemaster Vox AC30 model- thats actually the Humbucker from Hell pickup in the neck position.

https://soundcloud.com/philip-donovan-5 ... eartl_0132

So I decided to make the amp a 2 channel Fender normal channel (from Rob Robinette Blackvibe). I'm fairly confident that my baritone into a UA Ruby Vox modelling pedal with stereo effects into the super cleanness of that stereo amp into an EVM12 type speaker would work pretty fine. I had built the Blackvibe but it was so damn squeaky clean, I found it unusable and replaced the board with a vibrato/reverb channel AB763. Much better, more slice and grit.

So yeah, this project will get on going into the new year 2026 and meanwhile I'm almost done with the 20/20 watt stereo plexi. I love being a project rat. Especially when it works!

And the tl606 is not out of the question. My only concern was it it will retain enough sparkle as the 12". Even it it didn't, I wouldn't be against adding a 10" or two 8" extension speakers with the 15".

Thank you, Colossal,
Best
Phil

[Colossal]

Heres a link to my little Soundcloud if you are ever curious what the baritone sounds like into a Tonemaster Vox AC30 model- thats actually the Humbucker from Hell pickup in the neck position.

https://soundcloud.com/philip-donovan-5 ... eartl_0132

So I decided to make the amp a 2 channel Fender normal channel (from Rob Robinette Blackvibe). I'm fairly confident that my baritone into a UA Ruby Vox modeling pedal with stereo effects into the super cleanness of that stereo amp into an EVM12 type speaker would work pretty fine.

That sounds absolutely killer. Great tone and playing. Could listen to that all day.

I think a stereo pair of 806s would do that just fine and with a lot of authority.

[Reeltarded]

Sounds like a Balinese Highland Bell Organ!

This is the answer to your problem. YOU NEED A PARAMETRIC EQ after the Ruby. I do not know of a modern unit that would be perfect, but a Rane PE-15 or 17 would change this thing into a delicate sledgehammer.

At least 3 bands with h/l shelf.

mmmm a couple pinches near the articulation with a slight expansion to the 1khz hole in the Vox sound and gentle boost from around 70-325Hz with the hi and lo shelves moderated to leave only what belongs.

So, Phil, I guess you have listened to Michael Hedges at least some. You know how the Dyer with pickups sounded. Have you ever heard one in the real world? Beautiful machine sounds like a cigar box until you get all the fundamentals playing well together.

Neat stuff! The eq is an answer that makes your setup work with any cabinets.

[pjd3]

Thanks guys for your generous feedback, that's inspiring.

Funny you mention EQ, and after the Vox modeller. I did infact think that there were some frequency issues that really could use some addressing. Although the guitar plays really nice, there was a little help I thought it needed, and it was related to EQ. Yeah, getting a little more body in the middle somewhere would help and a bit of tailoring in the high mids somewhere, somehow.

The Vox model in the Tonemaster, which I was using in this recording for one gave what I thought to be a nice general texture and fabric to the sound that I thought was missing. But yeah, there is a distinct change in the EQ and it does make sense that it ought to happen after the pedal to perhaps restore something that was pulled out or shifted. I've been looking at the ParaEQ deluxe but the idea of having presets would be good too. Source Audio has a digital parametric with variable bands and a number of presets, but, everyone seems to be toting the ParaEQ as having a "better tone" which I'm always a true sucker for the better tone over flexibility. When I sell two vintage Lexicon 300's I'll be able to slurge on a list of nice pedals, and a good EQ was definitely on the list.

Just to mention, this song you heard has the capo on the 9th fret. That song was a tad bit of an outlier of tunes I've tried to learn that generally have the capo on the3rd, 5th or 7th fret, which will pull the low E string down to, I think an E flat or D flat. And the kind of songs I intend to learn and play on this guitar use the low notes quite a bit, just the nature of those old Celtic type tunes. Thats where I though a Thiele cabinet would come into play.

And yes, I'm a big Micheal Hedges fan. I learned to play Baal T'Shuvah about a year ago. It was by far, the most difficult song to both learn, and to play. But I practiced it, must have been a thousand times, because that's what it took to not have poor Micheal rolling in his grave. I'll see about recording it one day and posting it up.

What introduced my to old fingerstyle was Stephen Wake and Tony McManus. You'd swear these guys are 300 years old, they play this stuff so right.

But its going to haunt me, I "need" to have a custom build and thought out stereo system for this guitar. It needs a good home and presentation.

Thanks so much for your input, very grateful .
Best,
Phil D

[pjd3]

Hi guys,

If anyone is up for one more visit here.

So if I go with a couple of tl806 cabs with an EVM12 type speaker, do you think I will be able to reach low D's and maybe low E flats without any serious issues?

I do understand that things will change below 75-83 Hz or so, but, how much? Is it substantial or something that could be contended with with a good EQ pedal to compensate for any shifts in linearity? I have heard that covering the middle port opening will extend the low frequency quite a bit but, I assume that there will be a compromise or shift in response in some respect that I don't quite know about, yet.

The stereo amp that will be driving these 200 watt speakers with likely be a pair of 50 watt (say, a 6L6GC PP pair) very clean (never clipping) Figured I'd mention that in case that is an advantage in driving notes that are a whole step or 2 lower than the tl806 design frequency.

Thanks!
Best,
Phil Donovan