Need To Drop Minimum of 4V in Heater Supply

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R.G.
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Re: Need To Drop Minimum of 4V in Heater Supply

Post by R.G. »

DWhiteDenim wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:49 am A 5V zener is all I need? Watts?
Let's take take those as two questions. :D
If you want to experiment with this approach, you would need a zener and a full wave bridge rectifier. Both need to be able to carry the necessary current and not burn up.

Watts is always volts times amps. This is easy with DC volts and amps, but can get complicated with AC or pulsing volts and/or current. AC and pulsing is what this setup puts out. So you either need a fair amount of math to just nail it, or - my recommendation! - experiment a bit. To get a good starting point, I'd use the winding rating of 2A and 5V, and use a 10W 5V zener. I just checked and 10W zeners at Mouser electronics are available, but come only in a stud mount package. They're also expensive.

That's one reason I suggested an amplified zener. Transistors to dissipate 10W are cheap and widely available. Combine a TO-220 power transistor for US$0.50 with a $0.10 low power zener and a low power resistor and the combination acts like a high power zener but is cheap and widely available. This is probably why there aren't many power zeners in stock any more. If this interest you, I can sketch out a circuit. If it's too complicated for you, You should probably just use a resistor.

Unless you go to a whole switching power supply to step the 10.5V down, any linear way you reduce 10.5Vac down to 6.3V will dissipate the same amount of power, as all the approaches ultimately just waste the extra volts times amps as heat.
"It's not what we don't know that gets us in trouble. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"
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DWhiteDenim
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Re: Need To Drop Minimum of 4V in Heater Supply

Post by DWhiteDenim »

R.G. wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:36 pm
DWhiteDenim wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:49 am A 5V zener is all I need? Watts?
Let's take take those as two questions. :D
If you want to experiment with this approach, you would need a zener and a full wave bridge rectifier. Both need to be able to carry the necessary current and not burn up.

Watts is always volts times amps. This is easy with DC volts and amps, but can get complicated with AC or pulsing volts and/or current. AC and pulsing is what this setup puts out. So you either need a fair amount of math to just nail it, or - my recommendation! - experiment a bit. To get a good starting point, I'd use the winding rating of 2A and 5V, and use a 10W 5V zener. I just checked and 10W zeners at Mouser electronics are available, but come only in a stud mount package. They're also expensive.

That's one reason I suggested an amplified zener. Transistors to dissipate 10W are cheap and widely available. Combine a TO-220 power transistor for US$0.50 with a $0.10 low power zener and a low power resistor and the combination acts like a high power zener but is cheap and widely available. This is probably why there aren't many power zeners in stock any more. If this interest you, I can sketch out a circuit. If it's too complicated for you, You should probably just use a resistor.

Unless you go to a whole switching power supply to step the 10.5V down, any linear way you reduce 10.5Vac down to 6.3V will dissipate the same amount of power, as all the approaches ultimately just waste the extra volts times amps as heat.
Thank you for replying R.G.
I searched "amplified zener" thinking it was a single part. However, all the information I found leads to a circuit and several references to (possibly you?) R.G. Keen Mosfet Follies B+ Reducer: http://www.geofex.com/Article_Folders/m ... tfolly.htm
If this is the circuit you are referring to I can handle it but I will most likely need suggestions for the values of the low power zeners and resistors to
experiment with.

As I mentioned previously I probably should have used this PT for a simple single ended design that wouldn't require as much current draw for the heaters.
I could still go that route and order new OT such as this one: https://www.tubesandmore.com/products/t ... ngle-ended or I could buy a center tapped torroidal PT for a decent price and stick with this PP ecl84 design. I've been wanting to build a low-watt PP design for a long time now.
DWhiteDenim
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Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:54 am

Re: Need To Drop Minimum of 4V in Heater Supply

Post by DWhiteDenim »

Just an update that I still haven't purchased several needed parts yet. I decided to put on my parts list Sluckey's recommendation for the 2.3 ohm (25w chassis mount) resistor.
I also purchased this part https://www.ebay.com/itm/224352155131 prior to asking questions here. I'll probably try this first (un-mounted) rectified flat bridge FWR and heaters wired in series VDC, add one tube at a time and see if I can use all three tubes without drawing too much current at full output. Sluckey's resistor will be the second option wired in series VAC.

LM317 Specs:
(copied and pasted from this link https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lm317 ... e.com%252F ):TheLM317deviceis an adjustable three-terminal positive-voltage regulator capable of supplying morethan1.5 A over an output-derangement 1.25V to37 V. It requires only two external resistors to set the output voltage.The device features a typical line regulation of 0.01%and typical load regulation of 0.1%. It includes current limiting,thermal overload protection,and safe operating are a protection.Overload protection remains functional even if the ADJUST terminal is disconnected
R.G.
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Re: Need To Drop Minimum of 4V in Heater Supply

Post by R.G. »

Good luck on your experimentation!

There are some caveats with using an active regulator circuit. The LM317 is one of my favorite regulators. I use them a lot; good chip. The ebay listing doesn't show whether that circuit is running as a linear regulator or one of the somewhat esoteric conversions of a linear part into a switching regulator. If it happens to be what the name says (a buck regulator) it could be running in switching mode and may be prone to radiating RF onto your heater lines. Maybe, maybe not, but I found the use of the switching regulator term "buck" odd.

It is of course possible to convert the 10.x volts AC into DC with a rectifier/filter combo and just feed your heaters regulated DC. Nice for quiet heaters. However, this can cause additional heating in the transformer winding because the rectifier/filter combination pulls big current pulses charging the filter cap, so you get less DC current out than you would just using the transformer's AC secondary voltage. That's one reason I was using the "DC parts inside a full wave bridge" contortions - it does not add the filter/pulses losses.

And remember that anything will waste power equal to the voltage dropped times the current that flows. A linear regulator like the LM317 must get rid of heat equal to the voltage drop across it times the current flowing through it.

I realize that this is getting pretty far afield from where you started. Sorry - sometimes I just wander on with additional considerations. :D
"It's not what we don't know that gets us in trouble. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"
Mark Twain
DWhiteDenim
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Re: Need To Drop Minimum of 4V in Heater Supply

Post by DWhiteDenim »

R.G. wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 2:45 pmThat's one reason I was using the "DC parts inside a full wave bridge" contortions - it does not add the filter/pulses losses.

R.G., based on your recent reply I'd like to circle back to your amplified zener suggestion. I won't pretend that I am on par with several others here such as yourself concerning circuitry and mathematics. All of my builds so far have been tried and true amps using typical PT's designed for tube amps. My original thought was before starting on this project was that I would use a low ohm/high watt resistor such as Sluckey suggested. I didn't consider rectification to DC for the heaters until someone suggested it on another forum. That same person recommended searching Ebay for DC-DC voltage dropping buck-transformers but he never replied back concerning my concerns for the PT's secondary amperage limit concerns. I also purchased this item https://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-DC-Converte ... 2749.l2648 in addition to the other (LM-317) I posted. I will eventually find a use for these chipboards most likely in another capacity.

Anyway, getting back to the amplified zener here's what I have found on mouser which list multiple choices. I would like to experiment with it but I hope, with your help if you'd be so kind, to narrow down the ranges/parts, please? If it works successfully I think it may be very useful information and reference for others that may have a similar need.
TO-220 Transistor: https://www.mouser.com/Semiconductors/D ... diZ1z0w6y6
Low Power Zener: Which ballpark/experimental type (ex: axial) and values do you recommend, please?
Resistor: Which experimental values do you recommend, please?

I did a deeper search on Ebay and found additional boards that convert, adjust and filter voltage. I didn't see some of these boards prior because I usually filter searches within North America for faster delivery. The linked ones (below) are shipped from China. I don't anticipate any of these can be used for this build but as a potential future I would like to get your or others input.
a) https://www.ebay.com/itm/Suite-LM317-Mo ... Sw671dUp7w
b) https://www.ebay.com/itm/AC-DC-Buck-Ste ... Sw0A9aQheG
c) https://www.ebay.com/itm/AC-DC-Power-Su ... SwKOJYLBNa
R.G.
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Re: Need To Drop Minimum of 4V in Heater Supply

Post by R.G. »

An amplified zener is a bit of a sneaky trick. A zener is a diode that has been selected so it reverse breaks at a very specific voltage, the zener voltage. It still conducts like a diode the other way. All by itself a (for example) 5V zener does not conduct much at all until it gets to just about 5V reverse bias, then it conducts all the current fed to it until it burns up. So they make decent voltage references and shunt regulators. But they do generate heat equal to the zener voltage times whatever current is going through them. A 1W 5V zener can be expected to dissipate 1W when the current through it is 1W/5V = 200ma. There are high power zeners, but not as many as there used to be.
You can use a lower power, maybe 1/2W zener by connecting it between the collector and base of an NPN transistor, and connecting a resistor between the base and emitter. The resistor value is fairly arbitrary, as all it has to conduct is the leakages of the zener and collector base junction before the zener starts really conducting. This is generally microamps. When the zener breaks over and conduct, most of the current goes into the base of the transistor, and is amplified by the current gain of the transistor. So for a transistor with gain of maybe 50, the transistor conducts fifty times as much current as the zener feeding its base. The total breakover voltage of this composite zener is the actual zener voltage (5V in this imaginary example) plus the voltage needed to make the base-emitter conduct, generally 0.6 to 0.7V. A composite amplified zener with a 5V zener, and an NPN with a gain of 50 will have a "zener voltage" of 5V + 0.6V as an estimate, and the transistor will both conduct 50 times the current and produce 50 times the heat of the zener.

A TO-220 can dissipate roughly 2W with just its tab sticking in the air, but with proper heat sinking, a TO-220 can dissipate 50W or so. So you can make a 20W-50W zener with a 1W zener feeding the base of the NPN. And TO-220s are definitely designed to get heat out of the transistor and into a heat sink.

One result of that line of thinking is that you want a TO-220 with enough dissipation capability for the job, and a reasonably high current gain. I went to the Mouser link you provided (thank you!) and sorted them by price, least expensive first. Then I started looking at the datasheets for power and Hfe.
The cheapest one is listed as having a current gain maybe as low as 8 or 9. AAAACK! We want more gain. I didn't find one I really liked until I got down to the MJ15030G, $1.59 each, but with a typical gain of 100 or over for currents up to 2A. We're talking about something under an amp or two here, so with a current gain of 100-ish, the transistor would be eating nearly all the power dissipation. That gives a much wider selection of lower power zeners. It's a good place to start. As a possible alternate, I changed the current specification to 5A and greater and found the D44H11, $0.90 each and with a current gain of 100-200 typically over the expected current ranges. Voltage capability isn't needed much in this application, as you're likely to see well under 30V collector base even considering transients.

The necessary base emitter resistor is ... well, arbitrary. It just has to hold the base-emitter down well under 0.6V Until you definitely want the zener to conduct. So it's time to pick a zener, then pick the resistor. A BZX79-3V3 will give you 3.3V nominal before conducting, plus 0.6V nominal on the transistor base-emitter for a combined 3.9V or so. The BZX79-3V3 has a nominal leakage of 5uA. Either NPN will have Iceo of about 10uA, so the resistor needs to keep 15uA under 0.5V or so; pick a resistor smaller than 0.5V/15uA, which is 3.3K. A 1K to 3K there will work fine. Actually, you could probably use anything between 1K and 10K.

The actual breakover voltage will be somewhat sloppy. A BZX79-3V3 doesn't break at exactly 3.3000v, and a bipolar does not conduct exactly at 0.6V. The composite will have a zener voltage of maybe 3.9 to 4.1 depending on how the devices happen to come it. This is one reason not to use a MOSFET for the transistor. They have huge "current gains" OK, but there is usually one to two volts of tolerance on exactly when they'll start conducting. Bipolars are less variable about their cut-in voltage.

One more fringe kind of thing you can do is to use a Vbe multiplier. This eliminates the zener entirely, but at the cost of more thinking and worrying about the cut-in voltage of a bipolar. If you use an NPN and put a resistor (R1) from collector to base and a resistor (R2) from base to emitter, then start increasing the voltage from collector to emitter, the transistor does not conduct until Vbe gets to about 0.6V, the sloppy diode drop of a silicon junction. What does happen is that current leaks through the two resistors in series as a voltage divider. So the base-emitter voltage rises according to the voltage divider. For a total voltage from collector to emitter of "V", then Vbe is
V * R2/(R1+R2)
But when the Vbe hits 06V, the transistor starts conducting. It does this just enough to keep the base voltage from rising more. So the total voltage on the collector to emitter rises until it's Vbe times (R1+R2)/R2. That is, it looks like a zener that's a multiplied version of Vbe. R1 and R2 have to be picked so they let through enough base current to make this all come true, so there's some math work to do there, but this all works, and is the preferred way of biasing linear power amplifiers, as the temperature dependence of Vbe is also amplified by it. Since it's just a resistor ratio, you can make one of the resistors a pot and adjust the total breakover voltage.

Sigh. So many designs to do, so little time. :D
"It's not what we don't know that gets us in trouble. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"
Mark Twain
DWhiteDenim
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Re: Need To Drop Minimum of 4V in Heater Supply

Post by DWhiteDenim »

R.G. wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:07 pm D44H11, $0.90 each and with a current gain of 100-200 typically over the expected current ranges. Voltage capability isn't needed much in this application, as you're likely to see well under 30V collector base even considering transients.

A BZX79-3V3 will give you 3.3V nominal before conducting, plus 0.6V nominal on the transistor base-emitter for a combined 3.9V or so. The BZX79-3V3 has a nominal leakage of 5uA. Either NPN will have Iceo of about 10uA, so the resistor needs to keep 15uA under 0.5V or so; pick a resistor smaller than 0.5V/15uA, which is 3.3K. A 1K to 3K there will work fine.
R.G., Sorry for the delayed response. My adult children were visiting this past week. I'm going to order your above stated parts tomorrow. I'm going to include Sluckey's resistor suggestion as a back-up. Thank you for sharing your (impressive) knowledge and providing help. I will update when I get to the point of testing heater voltage/current before and after adding one tube at a time.

As a side note is there any way of putting secondary two (28v @ 20mA) to use?
sluckey
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Re: Need To Drop Minimum of 4V in Heater Supply

Post by sluckey »

sluckey wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:45 pm
DWhiteDenim wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:22 pm Large watt low ohm resistor is one option.
Simple is better. A 2.3Ω resistor will drop 4V at 1.75A.
Please note... This is a "classroom" solution to your request. Seldom works out exactly the same on the workbench. I would rather have a handful of 1Ω and 2Ω resistors to experiment with and find a suitable solution rather than rely on the 2.3Ω theoretical value.

Also worth considering... Hammond 166L6, 6.3VAC CT @ 2A, only cost $11.
R.G.
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Re: Need To Drop Minimum of 4V in Heater Supply

Post by R.G. »

Wise words, Slucky. Textbooks only take you so far! :D I'm with you on the need to add/subtract/adjust on the spot. And the Hammond trannie is a bargain.
"It's not what we don't know that gets us in trouble. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"
Mark Twain
DWhiteDenim
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Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:54 am

Re: Need To Drop Minimum of 4V in Heater Supply

Post by DWhiteDenim »

sluckey wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:49 pm
sluckey wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:45 pm
DWhiteDenim wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:22 pm Large watt low ohm resistor is one option.
Simple is better. A 2.3Ω resistor will drop 4V at 1.75A.
Please note... This is a "classroom" solution to your request. Seldom works out exactly the same on the workbench. I would rather have a handful of 1Ω and 2Ω resistors to experiment with and find a suitable solution rather than rely on the 2.3Ω theoretical value.

Also worth considering... Hammond 166L6, 6.3VAC CT @ 2A, only cost $11.
Maybe a ($5) 25w variable resistor such as this: https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Vi ... XOTQ%3D%3D it has a resistance range of 0.1 to 23K.

The 166L6 is probably the best solution but it will be close to $20 with shipping and tax (AES) https://www.google.com/search?client=fi ... mond+166L6
Also the chassis I'm using is pretty small 9x7x2 and it would be a tight fit with the fatty PT.
DWhiteDenim
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Re: Need To Drop Minimum of 4V in Heater Supply

Post by DWhiteDenim »

A bit off subject but I thought I'd go ahead and post the following. I mentioned previously that I purchased an amp several years ago which employed a single through hole bridge rectifier. The guy I purchased it from doesn't play guitar and had a website (now defunct) named Lighthouse 4HT Electronics. The amp I purchased from him is a single preamp 12at7, 12ax7 PI push-pull 6L6 listed at 17w. I later rewired it to Randy Fay's Daisycutter https://ax84.com/archive/ax84.com/stati ... 100422.jpg and wired in two 8-pin sockets and two 9-pin sockets for use of either EL84's, 6V6, EL34, 6L6. I used the existing transformers of which are the subject of this reply because of their cost.

PT: Tirade Magnetics VPS 230-190 https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Tr ... gAiLtxE%3D wired as 115 primary/230 secondary and around 300v after rectification.
Specs https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/410/ ... 781511.pdf
OT: https://www.beyondeleven.com/Generic-P-TF41318/
Heaters: https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Tr ... 2B1Q%3D%3D Datasheet: https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/410/F6_12-781687.pdf
Base price of $63 combined (shipping not included).
DWhiteDenim
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Re: Need To Drop Minimum of 4V in Heater Supply

Post by DWhiteDenim »

I got all the parts together and will start putting it together next week. I bought a 2.2ohm/10w chassis mount resistor (it's tiny) and I purchased the components R.G. recommended. I'm going with the resistor first and measuring voltages one tube at a time to see if it gets close to 6.3v. Even if the resistor works I want to try the amplified (power) zener as well out of curiosity, see if it lowers noise, and the final voltage reduction range.

I decided on a treble and bass tone stack with a fixed mid resistor. I also intend to use switchable (on-off-on) cathode bias bypass caps on each preamp gain stage. The values will be .01 uF and 15 uF. I have this setup on a champ style single-ended build and I find it very useful. That amp also has an On (25 uf)- Off- On (2200 uF) cathode bypass cap for the output tube that tightens bass.
DWhiteDenim
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Re: Need To Drop Minimum of 4V in Heater Supply

Post by DWhiteDenim »

I started this build over a month ago and just can't seem to find the motivation enough to put a lot of time into it so far (images attached). Also, I definitely over-reached on this one thinking I could cram so many components into such as small chassis. I didn't plan it very well and with the PT and chassis I'm using probably should've went with a simple single ended build.Into deep for that now as I populated the turret board. However, I could use this populated board for a future build and start a bridge terminal build (have plenty of those). If I go that route I will ditch the current LTP and go with a cathodyne PI, SV83 (EL84 equivalent). Although, I already have a higher HT version of this design and wanted to try something different.

If I carry on with the current build is it possible to use a single 12ax7 preamp tube in front of a long-tailed pair PI (triodes of both ECL84's) or will it require at least another gain stage (1/2 of a 12ax7)?
I am mostly using the schematic below but I will use a TB only tonestack. The population of the turret board ends at output from the tonestack. I do not have the preamp components wired in yet and if I continue this build they will have to be wired on bridge terminals and socket pins.

Any/all comments or suggestions appreciated.
6F4Plexi_v1.jpg
ECL84 3.jpg
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