ODSR #13 Hand drawn layout by H.A.D

[talbany]

I thought Brandons H.P.D was a direct copy of #005 ...

Tony, in regard to the schematic and perhaps some more general layout specs: Maybe. In regard to the parts used in the original #005: IMO very, very unlikely.




Max

Tony, in regard to the schematic and perhaps some more general layout specs: Maybe.

Max Take a minute and think about what we have just been talking about? Reverbs Not the Parts!

BTW: AFAIR up to now I've never seen in person or on pictures a real 1:1 "direct copy" of any Dumble amp at all. And from an economic point of view I wouldn't be very surprised, if building an exact "direct copy" of any Dumble amp today (if someone really should be able to obtain all the parts used in the original) at the end of the day (or of the life of someone trying) might be even more expensive (valuing building time in a way some expert tech would value his time for chasing down all the original parts and then building a "direct copy") than just buying the original.

Who was it that said that one needs to track down all the exact parts Dumble used to build a Dumble Designed amplifier that inspires them:? As far as parts selection goes One might prefer the slightly less textured sound of a 1/2w 10% Allen Bradley or Iskra over a Q-line flameproof resistor or the smooth silky top end of a Blackgate cap over looser Sprague TVA then they should choose these parts and not the ones Dumble used.
If the object here is to try and capture the original timbre, nuances and feel of a particular instrument then that's whole new can of trouble! Just as a guitar manufacturer choosing a particular wood for a specific timbre from a distributor that say harvests their woods from the pacific south west or the mountains of Brazil or the swamps of florida, they are chasing a specific sound!.So if you are after this specific sound your odds of getting closer improve exponentially using the exact same wood/Part composition as what was used in the original instrument you are copying. You're on a Dumble amp discussion forum so we are going to talk and want to experiment with some of the same parts Dumble used.
As many of the more experienced builders (Brandon) here will already tell you this? We already know it's virtually impossible to build 2 amplifiers that sound and perform exactly the same (even with the same parts) so your preachin' to the choir. and not everyone has a 70/100 grand to drop on an instrument.

As far as how someone wants to spend their time and energy on is what makes them happy they are free to spend it how they want. I mean look at me I could be doing something else!, but instead here we are sitting in front of a computer talking how many tubes Dumble used for his reverb to you Max
I would rather be looking for parts!
All the Best back at ya!

Tony

[Max]

Who was it that said that one needs to track down all the exact parts Dumble used to build a Dumble Designed amplifier that inspires them:?

Tony, you wrote " ... direct copy of #005", and according to the Cambridge Dictionary the usual meaning of the noun "copy" is: "something that has been made to be exactly like something else": https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictio ... glish/copy. So please excuse my misunderstanding.

All the best,

Max

[talbany]

Tony, you wrote " ... direct copy of #005", and according to the Cambridge Dictionary the usual meaning of the noun "copy" is: "something that has been made to be exactly like something else": https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictio ... glish/copy. So please excuse my misunderstanding.

Max
AFAIK Brandon had in his shop at one time #005 for repairs. It is well known that he blueprinted the amp copied the circuits and now builds what he calls "The High Plains Drifter" SSS. So Since he Copied it, I used the word "copy" .Since he had possession of the actual amp and was not just handed pictures or a schematic by someone else who was in possession of the amp therefore I used the word "direct" (in context with respect to the circuits/design of the amp and not parts or any kind of sonic characteristics didn't enter my mind since we were discussing reverb circuits)
I don't have any pics of the original #005. this is the reason for posting a pic of of the H.P.D

I hope this clears up any confusion on what is? is?

Tony

[Max]

... discussing reverb circuits

Do I understand you correctly that your opinion in regard to this topic is:

SSS100W #001, #002, #004: "Tweed Mixer Reverb" (3 1/2 nine-pin tubes)

ODSR100W #0013: "3-Tube Reverb" (3 nine-pin tubes)

SSS150W #005: "Fender Reverb" (2 nine-pin tubes)

Do I understand you correctly?

All the best,

Max

[talbany]

... discussing reverb circuits

Do I understand
you correctly that your opinion in regard to this topic is:

SSS100W #001, #002, #004: "Tweed Mixer Reverb" (3 1/2 nine-pin tubes)

ODSR100W #0013: "3-Tube Reverb" (3 nine-pin tubes)

SSS150W #005: "Fender Reverb" (2 nine-pin tubes)

Do I understand you correctly?

All the best,

Max

Technically thats correct, Another way of looking at or thinking about it could be
SSS100W #001, #002, #004: "Tweed Mixer Reverb & filter recovery=( 4 nine-pin tubes)


ODSR100W #0013 -Standard Plate driven Tube Reverb pre OD mix"=3 nine-pin tubes SSS150W

SSS #005: "Fender Style Reverb" & filter recovery= (2 nine-pin tubes)

The rest would simply be?
Pi/PI Driver/Tremolo/Vibrato/input/OD= 1 nine pin tube each. This way you don't have to use the 1/2 tube thing to explain it, just add the filters..Obviously ODSR's have no filters so no need for the 1/2 gain stage recovery.

Back to lookin for parts
Tony

[Max]

ODSR100W #0013 -Standard Plate driven Tube Reverb pre OD mix"=3 nine-pin tubes SSS150W

Tony, I don't understand what you mean by "SSS150W" at the end of this sentence?

All the best,

Max

[talbany]

SSS150W SSS #005: "Fender Style Reverb" & filter recovery= (2 nine-pin tubes)

Goodbye Max

[jfs322]

... discussing reverb circuits

Do I understand you correctly that your opinion in regard to this topic is:

SSS100W #001, #002, #004: "Tweed Mixer Reverb" (3 1/2 nine-pin tubes)

ODSR100W #0013: "3-Tube Reverb" (3 nine-pin tubes)

SSS150W #005: "Fender Reverb" (2 nine-pin tubes)

Do I understand you correctly?

All the best,

Max

#004 doesn't use the Tweed mixer. This was discussed a while back, but although the gutshot shows six preamp tube sockets, only five preamp tubes are actually used in the amp. I believe it is the right rear tube that is not functionally in use. Not sure why Dumble decided ultimately not to use that sixth tube.

[Max]

#004 doesn't use the Tweed mixer. This was discussed a while back,...

Thanks a lot for the info. So do you know if SSS #004 has what Tony called a "3-tube reverb" or what he called a "Fender Reverb" (2 tubes)? And do you remember the thread-title of this discussion?

Thanks again and kind regards,

Max

[jfs322]

#004 doesn't use the Tweed mixer. This was discussed a while back,...

Thanks a lot for the info. So do you know if SSS #004 has what Tony called a "3-tube reverb" or what he called a "Fender Reverb" (2 tubes)? And do you remember the thread-titel of this discussion?

Thanks again and kind regards,

Max

https://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... &hilit=004

[talbany]

Sorry Butt?

IMG_4072.JPG

Thats Funny!!

Tony

[Aaron]

The question mark in the pic is the reverb transformer.
Number 2 tube is the reverb driver at the back of the amp.

Aaron

[talbany]

The question mark in the pic is the reverb transformer.
Number 2 tube is the reverb driver at the back of the amp.

Aaron

Thanks Aaron
Judging by what the board looks like came up with this.

sss51.jpg

Tony

[Max]

#004 doesn't use the Tweed mixer. This was discussed a while back,...

... do you remember the thread-titel of this discussion?

https://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... &hilit=004

Thanks a lot for the link. Interesting discussion.

In regard to the picture of SSS #004 posted and commented by talbany in his most previous post (Thanks!):

As this might not be self explanatory for all members here (at least not for me): Wouldn't it perhaps be fine, if in the context of this thread's topic someone might explain in perhaps some more detail the more subtle similarities and differences between the reverb circuits of SSS #004 (and/or some other SSS version) vs. ODSR #0013 (pre OD reverb) and vs. ODR #0060 (post OD reverb) and/or perhaps vs. ODR #0058 etc.?

Thanks a lot again and all the best,

Max

[talbany]

... do you remember the thread-titel of this discussion?

https://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... &hilit=004

Thanks a lot for the link. Interesting discussion.

In regard to the picture of SSS #004 posted and commented by talbany in his most previous post (Thanks!):

As this might not be self explanatory for all members here (at least not for me): Wouldn't it perhaps be fine, if in the context of this thread's topic someone might explain in perhaps some more detail the more subtle similarities and differences between the reverb circuits of SSS #004 (and/or some other SSS version) vs. ODSR #0013 (pre OD reverb) and vs. ODR #0060 (post OD reverb) and/or perhaps vs. ODR #0058 etc.?

Thanks a lot again and all the best,

Max

Max
You already sent me this a long time ago so it sounds like you are familiar with #13 and you basically already know where these circuits sit in the amp it sounds like?

Reverb:

This is what I know

2nd generation Overdrive Reverb:
3 tubes (driver, return amp, mix amp,). Mix is done before the OD circuit. So you have ìoverdriven reverbî. By this the reverb gets the more prominent, the more the OD decays. It is a bit like with a Deluxe Reverb in power amp saturation mode. When the note decays, the reverb gets more prominent. These amps have less gain AFAIR than the usual 2nd generation ODS.


4th generation Overdrive Reverb:
3 tubes (driver, return amp, mix amp). Reverb send is behind volume and ratio, mix before master volume. By this the reverb is a bit like an effect in the loop.

SSS:
Some with 3 tubes, some with 2 (2: mix is done by recovery after filters AFAIR)

DL 300SL:
2 tubes. Mix is done by recovery after filters AFAIR

DL 150W with reverb and without filters:
Similar to the 4th generation ìeffect in the loopî structure.

Here is what I know
#004/3 tube reverb

Reverb Signal
In the case of the SSS and ODSR The dry (or input) signal to the reverb input is usually taken from the wiper of the volume pot or just after the tone stack (a clean low level signal)..it's then sent to a reverb send amp to be amplified then to the 12AT7 to drive the tank. Then to the return or recovery amp to recover the signal lost with the tank, then off to the mixer amp
Filter Signal
Output signal coming off the Hi/Lo filters goes to the Mixer amp where the filter signal is recovered. It's then mixed at the plates (or output) of the mixer amp with the reverb mixer, usually with a pair of whats called mixing resistors then this mixed signal is finally sent back off the P.I and as you would put it like an effects loop.

002/Tweed Mixer/4 tube

The main difference with the tweed mixer is the signals are mixed at the cathodes of the mixer tubes instead of the plates, this becomes a low impedance buffer/mixer and not an amplifier,so this method of mixing is not really considered a "gain stage" (vs mixing at the plates).So you need to add an extra tube to amplify both reverb recovery and filter recovery before the mixer. This low impedance mixer circuit has less of a loading effect so it tends to have a more natural sound and a slightly wider bandwidth and a stronger sounding reverb..The wet/dry signals are basically treated the same as 004 (Mixed and sent to PI)

005 mixes the signal before the filter recovery amp. This way you are using this filter recovery amp to recover both reverb and filter signals already mixed saving you an extra tube,however adding some loading effects giving you a weaker less natural sounding reverb.IMO

IMO..The Tweed mixer is by far the best sounding.To best describe the sound would be clear with plenty of treble and does not seem to suffer from the boomey-ness most other reverbs have..These reverbs have plenty of drive so the reverb decays more naturally and the notes seem unaffected by adding more reverb no doubt due to the less of a loading effect on the low impedance mixer
I hope this makes some sense

Tony