D-Lite redux - an unintentional manifesto

[greiswig]

kleinm, a couple of hopefully-quick questions...

First, could you tell more about the Bluesmaster PAB (with different padding resistor)? With mine engaged on the OD channel, my Tele on the bridge, I can cop a surprisingly good "La Grange" tone...but I don't play that song much.

Second, what types of guitars and pickups are you using, and what style of music?

Also, I'd really like to hear more about your perceptions of the different PI setups. My D'Lite sounds pretty good, but it doesn't feed back easily the way I've heard some clips here, and I don't get the kind of bloom that I've heard elsewhere. I wonder if the BM PI might be more my flavor.

Thanks!

[kleinm]

kleinm, a couple of hopefully-quick questions...

First, could you tell more about the Bluesmaster PAB (with different padding resistor)?

Second, what types of guitars and pickups are you using?

Thanks!

The Bluesmaster-type PAB can be seen on mdroberts1243's schematic in the below thread:
https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.php?t=3344

Its a simple type of boost in that it lifts the ground connection from the tonestack. I created a single ground link in my Skyliner 'stack, and padded it with a smaller resistor than what's mentioned in that schematic.

I'm using three main guitars with the D'Lite. A PRS Standard 22 with a DiMarzios Bluesbucker in the neck and Virtual Hot PAF in the bridge, a PRS Singlecut with Virtual PAFs, and a Fender Eric Johnson Strat with stock pickups. I've but flirting with trying a High Order in the Singlecut.

BTW, I'm a bridge position kind of guy.

[kleinm]

kleinm,
did your tone stack wiring change the voicing of the amp? Does your PAB give you a huge vol boost on the clean channel? Is this your PAB/tonestack wiring?

The only difference in my tonestack wiring from the standard way is I ran the 10K tail resistor to the ground connection on the Middle pot, instead of to the buss bar. Then I used the relay to pad the ground connection from the Middle pot.

I could be wrong, but there should be no difference in voicing with this. It just seemed to be a neater way to do this style of PAB for the Skyliner stack.

No, there is not a HUGE volume boost. Just a meaty tone enhancement and a slight volume boost.

[greiswig]

The Bluesmaster-type PAB can be seen on mdroberts1243's schematic in the below thread:
https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.php?t=3344

Wow! That was fast...you replied while I was adding one more question to my original list!

"Also, I'd really like to hear more about your perceptions of the different PI setups. My D'Lite sounds pretty good, but it doesn't feed back easily the way I've heard some clips here, and I don't get the kind of bloom that I've heard elsewhere. I wonder if the BM PI might be more my flavor."

and...

So the PAB variation is the 72k listed across the NC poles of the PAB switch?

[roadkingbluzs]

Great job Kleinm, But still learning the how and why. Dropping string resisters location and effect? Anyone will do. I have D'Lite that sounds great but plan on 50 watter upgrade so I may add some tweaks. Sounds like the magic has been released! Buy the way your builds look just great.Thanks to you and all who share their knowledge on this forum as I am still on the learning curve. Merry Christmas !!

[Structo]

What do you mean by "the 50 watter upgrade"?
Are you talking OT and 6L6's?

I have the D'Lite 44 which has the dual primary OT and 6L6's (TAD).
It is plenty loud but I don't think it is near 50 watts.
I've heard 35-40 watts as a conservative estimate.

[phsyconoodler]

I use this simple formula to help me figure out the output wattage without actually measuring it.It is just to give me an idea under perfect conditions what an amp is capable of putting out.RMS measurements are more accurate but this helps me.
plate voltage squared/OT primary impedance.

So if the plate is 450v and the primary is 4k then 450x 450 is 202500/4000 = 50 watts or close.This does not take into account losses and actual primary impedance(measured)
These are under optimum conditions.Even if your amp only put out a measured 40 watts the percieved loudness would be basically the same as 50 watts.
Now a really good sounding JTM45 uses a 6.6k primary with KT66's and would only kick out 30 watts.do you really need all 50 watts or can you be happy with 30 kick-ass watts?

[ampgeek]

I have been experimenting with my homegrown D'Lite (B'Note iron in a Bogen metallic enclosure following, for the most part, the original layout by Normster) for a couple of months now and have, at one time or another, incorporated all of the changes mentioned by kleinm and/or on the "Tweaked D'lite" schematic in the files section. Most of which have been presented/discussed by the gurus and other great folks here.

Unfortunately, throughout all of this I still don't have more than 20 hours of operation so I have probably been chasing my tail a bit (the impatient twit that I am!). Regardless, it has been a fun and rewarding experience!

Also unfortunately, half of the tweaks were done before I realized what was causing an un-musical distortion in the OD signal path (a noisy OD1 grid stopper resistor). So....a lot of the "data" and "observed effect to change" occuring throughout the process is invalid.

I am currently running NOS TungSol 5881's biased slightly cold (30'ish ma) with the BM PI and skyliner tone stack. NOS Mullard, Telefunken and Amperex 12AX7's and a G1265 in a 1X12 Avatar, partially closed cab.

My clean and PAB tones are outstanding and I am loving them to death. The OD is very, very good but still not exactly where I want to be. Of course, trying to describe what that actually means is elusive....but I will know it when I get there!!

The two biggest "breakthroughs" for me was using the the amp stethoscope to find the offending resistor and focusing in on what worked for me tonally at various places in the signal chain and padding the PAB to the desired level with 500K to ground. That REALLY made my OD useable with PAB engaged and pushed me, finally, into a "happy place"!!

Many of the other tweaks were being clouded by other issues so it is impossible to accurately descibe their effects.

I can confirm kleinm's observation about the BM imparting unique harmonics and agree that it is hard to decide which plan is more pleasing.
Guess that I will need to build another one! For now, I plan on getting as many hours on it as possible to see where I end up after the aging process.

Afterall, it really is a bitchin amp that I would be proud to play anywhere at this point! I can't thank enough all of the folks who played a part in getting the first D'lite concept off of the launching pad as well as those who have freely shared their knowledge and experiences.

Merry Christmas to all,
Dave O.

[roadkingbluzs]

What do you mean by "the 50 watter upgrade"?
Are you talking OT and 6L6's?

I have the D'Lite 44 which has the dual primary OT and 6L6's (TAD).
It is plenty loud but I don't think it is near 50 watts.
I've heard 35-40 watts as a conservative estimate.

I have an original 22 watt OT with 6L6's. I had a 50 watt Dynaco for future build but now after Kleinm's finding's I may be doing some tweaks.

[JimiB]

The only difference in my tonestack wiring from the standard way is I ran the 10K tail resistor to the ground connection on the Middle pot, instead of to the buss bar. Then I used the relay to pad the ground connection from the Middle pot.

I could be wrong, but there should be no difference in voicing with this. It just seemed to be a neater way to do this style of PAB for the Skyliner stack.

No, there is not a HUGE volume boost. Just a meaty tone enhancement and a slight volume boost.

So is my drawing in this thread correct? Is that how yours is layed out?
It totally changed my amps voicing - made it kinda dull. The PAB sound is fabulous, but is such a huge vol boost in the clean channel it's probably unusable.

[dogears]

The stack diagram is wrong. The 10K is to ground. Tie the mid ground to bass ground. Take both through a 10K to ground. Use the relay to break that one ground connection.

kleinm,
did your tone stack wiring change the voicing of the amp? Does your PAB give you a huge vol boost on the clean channel? Is this your PAB/tonestack wiring?

[JimiB]

O.K. I will try that. I went back to my original wiring and it was brighter and clearer, but the PAB didn't sound nearly as good. I will try this.

[greiswig]

I think my questions might have gotten lost in the melee, so I'm posting them again to kleinm. Thanks again for sharing your experiences, amigo!

The Bluesmaster-type PAB can be seen on mdroberts1243's schematic in the below thread:
https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.php?t=3344

Wow! That was fast...you replied while I was adding one more question to my original list!

"Also, I'd really like to hear more about your perceptions of the different PI setups. My D'Lite sounds pretty good, but it doesn't feed back easily the way I've heard some clips here, and I don't get the kind of bloom that I've heard elsewhere. I wonder if the BM PI might be more my flavor."

and...

So the PAB variation is the 72k listed across the NC poles of the PAB switch?

[kleinm]

I think my questions might have gotten lost in the melee, so I'm posting them again to kleinm. Thanks again for sharing your experiences, amigo!

The Bluesmaster-type PAB can be seen on mdroberts1243's schematic in the below thread:
https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.php?t=3344

Wow! That was fast...you replied while I was adding one more question to my original list!

"Also, I'd really like to hear more about your perceptions of the different PI setups. My D'Lite sounds pretty good, but it doesn't feed back easily the way I've heard some clips here, and I don't get the kind of bloom that I've heard elsewhere. I wonder if the BM PI might be more my flavor."

and...

So the PAB variation is the 72k listed across the NC poles of the PAB switch?

Ah, my bad. Sorry for missing this.

If you're looking for more bloom and feedback, I think the Bluesmaster PI might give you more of that. My experience was that it increased harmonics and feedback/bloom. I think you might get a little more complex tone out of that PI. I'd also add that it is subjectively brighter sounding. IMHO, YMMV.

The standard Dumble PI is a little smoother, and also seems to give a "cleaner" sound as a whole. I might be wrong, but it seems to stay more consistent as you increase the volume too.

I had both PI configurations and like them both. Right now, the standard is making me happy. Opinions are subject to change.

As far as the PAB, dogears lays it out in a post a few above this. I padded the ground connection in PAB with a 4M7. I'm thinking about trying a 2M2, which I didn't have on hand at the time.

[greiswig]

If you're looking for more bloom and feedback, I think the Bluesmaster PI might give you more of that. My experience was that it increased harmonics and feedback/bloom. I think you might get a little more complex tone out of that PI. I'd also add that it is subjectively brighter sounding. IMHO, YMMV.

The standard Dumble PI is a little smoother, and also seems to give a "cleaner" sound as a whole. I might be wrong, but it seems to stay more consistent as you increase the volume too.

Many thanks, kleinm! So...if I were to change to the Bluesmaster PI, would I be changing everything before *and* after the splitter tube, or just the 4-resistor network and coupling caps before the splitter, or...

The BM schematic I've seen uses four power tubes, so I'm wondering what differences might be appropriate for a 2 x 6L6 amp. On what little I've learned here, I'm guessing that the caps and R values after the splitter would still be appropriate for the stock power section, the possible exception being the changes that you have suggested for making the 6V6 to 6L6 change.

Or perhaps another way of putting it would be "what components of the BM PI contribute to the bloom and harmonic complexity you describe?" I hate having to have someone hold my hand through what should be easy questions like this, but until dogears lets me apprentice in his shop...