Robben Ford concert

[Charlie Wilson]

Hello, I played around a little with a BB Preamp pedal in front of my Low Plate Classic and it sounded good, however the overdrive on my amp has still won over any distortion or overdrive pedal I have tried thus far and I am using a Strat. The other thing is sometimes it is tricky with an amp with a master volume to find the preamp volume on the amp that works with the pedal and still is set where you want it for clean. I find that most these pedals work best in front of an amp that does not have a master like a blackface Fender but hey this is a Dumble forum. The other thing is you double your cable length when you use a pedal and either lose some high if it is true bypass or have a buffered sound that may or may not like the front end of the Dumble and I find that most do not. Reverb pedals are an issue with me because as Tony pointed out, you end up slamming the front end of those things harder with your overdrive than with your clean. I find the Vertex boost interesting and if the buffer is as nice sounding as it is on Robben's video that could be a winner especially to boost a Strat.
CW

[norburybrook]

Charlie I agree with your post. Mike Landau doesn't like any amps with master volume as he's a pedal man. Regarding buffers, a GOOD buffer works well and negates any cable losses etc problem is a lot of pedal buffers aren't very good. The Klon Centaur has a good buffer, I personally really like Peter Cornish's buffers, simple design and makes my guitar sound the same through my pedal board as plugging it in directly to the amp. Reverb/delay/chorus should always go on your FX loop to stop the problems you stated, or perhaps if you've no loop have a wet/dry set up.

As with all these things there's a relationship between everything in your chain from guitar/cable/amp/FX and yo have to find out what combo works best for YOU , and that can take a lot of time to find out.

Throw into that the same rig will sound different every night in each venue and you can see why people are always chasing their tail


Marcus

[ayan]

I find the comment curious, since it is opposite to my experience with pedals played through "clean" amps. A vintage Fender BF, for example, has the back end wide open and the front end throttled down by the volume control. That means that the preamp will be behaving differently depending on the volume setting, and this will -- to me -- make setting the pedal more of a balancing act. If, on the other hand, the amp has has a master volume, one can predetermine the amount or preamp gain and be done with it. That makes it easier for me to dial in an overdrive pedal, since the master only adds loudness and not "gain." Needless to say, an amp like a BF Fender will be inherently hissy due to the location of its volume control, which to me is another reason for having a master volume.

All of the above arguments go out the window if one uses an amp that derives its signature tone from the overdrive generated by all of its sections at the same time, like an old Marshall.

Cheers,

Gil

Hello, I played around a little with a BB Preamp pedal in front of my Low Plate Classic and it sounded good, however the overdrive on my amp has still won over any distortion or overdrive pedal I have tried thus far and I am using a Strat. The other thing is sometimes it is tricky with an amp with a master volume to find the preamp volume on the amp that works with the pedal and still is set where you want it for clean. I find that most these pedals work best in front of an amp that does not have a master like a blackface Fender but hey this is a Dumble forum. The other thing is you double your cable length when you use a pedal and either lose some high if it is true bypass or have a buffered sound that may or may not like the front end of the Dumble and I find that most do not. Reverb pedals are an issue with me because as Tony pointed out, you end up slamming the front end of those things harder with your overdrive than with your clean. I find the Vertex boost interesting and if the buffer is as nice sounding as it is on Robben's video that could be a winner especially to boost a Strat.
CW

[aflynt]

I think the master volume is more of a simplicity issue. One less knob to have to mess with. With old Fenders, the small amps tend to have a narrower sweet spot than the big amps IMHO, once you find the right pedals for them.

With Dumble circuits, I personally don't like anything but a cable between the guitar and amp. Once buffers are involved, it kind of negates a lot of what makes me like the amp OD more than OD pedals. Putting solid state, or even digital stuff in the buffered loop sounds great, though.

As far as pedals with Dumbles go, I think the usual suspects that work on Fenders (Tube Screamers, Klon, etc...) emphasize too many of the frequencies that these amps already have plenty of. I'm guessing the BB Preamp with the active tone controls lets you dial in a more complimentary frequency response.

-Aaron

[talbany]

I think it really all depends on the situation your put up against..

My ideal situation is (having no concern for volume) bringing out the 100w Low Plate Classic or the 102 with outboard loop and effects and going straight in using maybe only a volume pedal on the front end..
Although I do find that I have to get the volume up where the power amp fills and fattens, smooths out the OD tone and the amp responds the way I want..The D-lator helps with this somewhat however I still find for most of the much smaller size clubs/Bars, I play I am too loud..SUCKS!!
For the really small clubs I have no choice but to take a combo with a few pedals when you have to watch your volumes..I will say that pedals have come a long way in the last 10 years or so!!
I do agree that a few pedals and buffers in the front end of all of my D-style amps alter the tone and feel and for me not for the better..(especially in OD)..WARNING SUBJECTIVE!
If I have to play at super quiet volumes (weddings dinner party's) etc I like to have an amp with a master vol so I can have some control over the front end to keep things lively..If I can get my Blackface Fenders up around 3 I like for the amp to not have the master (Same with my JTM 45) however sometimes this is not even possible so take something in the 50w range with a master..Cathode biased amps are also good for small rooms and have a nice full sound at low volumes due to the hotter bias at idle..I have a cathode biased 2xKT66 Tweed Pro with a 15 that sounds BIG on 2 especially with the Tele..My preferences going loudest to quiet are:

100w master w/loop outboard (no Pedals)
50w no master pedals
50w w/Master pedals
35w Cathode biased amp w/master (if it has one) and pedals

Like the Stones say You can't always get what you want...

Tony

[Charlie Wilson]

Hello, I can't disagree with the logic of Gil's post, I guess I have used blackface Fender amps with pedals in front for so long that is what I am use to. As far as hiss, I kind of like it. I keep a Twin by my bed at night turned up as a white noise generator. Just kidding, I do however keep a fan by my bed for the same reason. Tony I am curious. Two things you did not mention were a 100w OD with a half power switch and a straight 50w OD no pedals. I suspect that the half power thing may not be the greatest sounding 50w and a straight 50w OD is probably almost as loud as the 100w.
CW

[norburybrook]

I'll chime in here. I've just fitted a half power switch to my bluesmaster and there isn't a lot of difference to be honest in perceived level. When the amp is in it's sweet spot-volume 4-master 4-OD master 3. Then it's still very loud even on half power. The sound doesn't really suffer though on half power, you just loose a bit of weight,( the blast wave from the speaker is less) . however once mic'd I doubt you could tell the difference.


I've bought a pair of 6v6's just to try and see what a lower wattage/volume version of my #102 will sound like for this very reason.



Marcus

[talbany]

Hello, I can't disagree with the logic of Gil's post, I guess I have used blackface Fender amps with pedals in front for so long that is what I am use to. As far as hiss, I kind of like it. I keep a Twin by my bed at night turned up as a white noise generator. Just kidding, I do however keep a fan by my bed for the same reason. Tony I am curious. Two things you did not mention were a 100w OD with a half power switch and a straight 50w OD no pedals. I suspect that the half power thing may not be the greatest sounding 50w and a straight 50w OD is probably almost as loud as the 100w.
CW

Charlie
Good question!!..I think there are a number of reasons..First the 100's w/1/2 power switch (as many have noticed) don't really offer much in the way of volume reduction Some of the reasons are I believe because now you have basically a 50 watt amp on a platform spec with 100 watt transformers/power supply so your iron won't saturate or sag much so the amp will be tight at really low volumes..So a dedicated 50w version with smaller iron and PS would at least feel and respond more favorable to the smaller rooms..On the other hand some amps are just designed to be run and sound the best (That famous 100w Dumble sound we love) run up to a certain volume level where the preamp and output section are voiced and designed to run..
It's sort of true with Marshalls.. The point at which the preamp starts to go and you get all that wonderful 2nd order (the Strat gets FAT)as well as that classic Marshall snarl and all the compression and feel with a saggy power supply add in the thump of a 4x12 and wala!..Of coarse you can run them straight clean nothing wrong with that but it's not the same..Blackface Fenders however seem to be a bit different,especially the ones with reverb that seem to add that other 1/2 gain stage due to the parallel reverb so these amps seem more lively at lower volumes..Of coarse they get there vibe when run into breakup as well....So without rambling any further I think every amp design has its favorable spots..Some just happen to be a bit louder than others..All in all I think you can still get a good sound from the ODS design at fairly reasonable vol levels (with lator) much better than say a 100w Plexi or a Trainwreck.. ..and the smaller clubs want me to run at unreasonable levels..IT"S A BAND!!

Some of this is of coarse my personal experience with these amps and what I expect to get out of them,and my other list were really a kind of guide line I use when picking amps..

Tony

[ayan]

All this talk has "forced" me to reconsider my options here and I will go ahead and buy a HOF reverb for my pedalboard so that it will be complete with everything I use: homebrew pedalboard interface with double buffers, compressor -- which may be replaced by an RC Booster, Crybaby wah, EB volume pedal, Xotic BB and Flashback delay. When I play as loud as I want, I like the sound of the amp's overdrive with no boost best. If I'm loud but not as much, I can get way throwing the PAB in for extra "comfort" if I'm playing with the large band with horns, otherwise the sound gets too thin. However, at any other time, the BB's overdrive sounds decidedly better than the amp's. Also, using the BB gets around the clean VS OD balancing act, I can set the amp as chimey as I want for clean and then nuke some of the highs from the pedal. The compressor can goose the BB some more for extra dirt. If all of this works out, I will be able to lose the rack permanently.

Gil

Hello, I can't disagree with the logic of Gil's post, I guess I have used blackface Fender amps with pedals in front for so long that is what I am use to. As far as hiss, I kind of like it. I keep a Twin by my bed at night turned up as a white noise generator. Just kidding, I do however keep a fan by my bed for the same reason. Tony I am curious. Two things you did not mention were a 100w OD with a half power switch and a straight 50w OD no pedals. I suspect that the half power thing may not be the greatest sounding 50w and a straight 50w OD is probably almost as loud as the 100w.
CW

Charlie
Good question!!..I think there are a number of reasons..First the 100's w/1/2 power switch (as many have noticed) don't really offer much in the way of volume reduction Some of the reasons are I believe because now you have basically a 50 watt amp on a platform spec with 100 watt transformers/power supply so your iron won't saturate or sag much so the amp will be tight at really low volumes..So a dedicated 50w version with smaller iron and PS would at least feel and respond more favorable to the smaller rooms..On the other hand some amps are just designed to be run and sound the best (That famous 100w Dumble sound we love) run up to a certain volume level where the preamp and output section are voiced and designed to run..
It's sort of true with Marshalls.. The point at which the preamp starts to go and you get all that wonderful 2nd order (the Strat gets FAT)as well as that classic Marshall snarl and all the compression and feel with a saggy power supply add in the thump of a 4x12 and wala!..Of coarse you can run them straight clean nothing wrong with that but it's not the same..Blackface Fenders however seem to be a bit different,especially the ones with reverb that seem to add that other 1/2 gain stage due to the parallel reverb so these amps seem more lively at lower volumes..Of coarse they get there vibe when run into breakup as well....So without rambling any further I think every amp design has its favorable spots..Some just happen to be a bit louder than others..All in all I think you can still get a good sound from the ODS design at fairly reasonable vol levels (with lator) much better than say a 100w Plexi or a Trainwreck.. ..and the smaller clubs want me to run at unreasonable levels..IT"S A BAND!!

Some of this is of coarse my personal experience with these amps and what I expect to get out of them,and my other list were really a kind of guide line I use when picking amps..

Tony

[talbany]

All this talk has "forced" me to reconsider my options here and I will go ahead and buy a HOF reverb for my pedalboard so that it will be complete with everything I use: homebrew pedalboard interface with double buffers, compressor -- which may be replaced by an RC Booster, Crybaby wah, EB volume pedal, Xotic BB and Flashback delay. When I play as loud as I want, I like the sound of the amp's overdrive with no boost best. If I'm loud but not as much, I can get way throwing the PAB in for extra "comfort" if I'm playing with the large band with horns, otherwise the sound gets too thin. However, at any other time, the BB's overdrive sounds decidedly better than the amp's. Also, using the BB gets around the clean VS OD balancing act, I can set the amp as chimey as I want for clean and then nuke some of the highs from the pedal. The compressor can goose the BB some more for extra dirt. If all of this works out, I will be able to lose the rack permanently.

Gil

Hello, I can't disagree with the logic of Gil's post, I guess I have used blackface Fender amps with pedals in front for so long that is what I am use to. As far as hiss, I kind of like it. I keep a Twin by my bed at night turned up as a white noise generator. Just kidding, I do however keep a fan by my bed for the same reason. Tony I am curious. Two things you did not mention were a 100w OD with a half power switch and a straight 50w OD no pedals. I suspect that the half power thing may not be the greatest sounding 50w and a straight 50w OD is probably almost as loud as the 100w.
CW

Charlie
Good question!!..I think there are a number of reasons..First the 100's w/1/2 power switch (as many have noticed) don't really offer much in the way of volume reduction Some of the reasons are I believe because now you have basically a 50 watt amp on a platform spec with 100 watt transformers/power supply so your iron won't saturate or sag much so the amp will be tight at really low volumes..So a dedicated 50w version with smaller iron and PS would at least feel and respond more favorable to the smaller rooms..On the other hand some amps are just designed to be run and sound the best (That famous 100w Dumble sound we love) run up to a certain volume level where the preamp and output section are voiced and designed to run..
It's sort of true with Marshalls.. The point at which the preamp starts to go and you get all that wonderful 2nd order (the Strat gets FAT)as well as that classic Marshall snarl and all the compression and feel with a saggy power supply add in the thump of a 4x12 and wala!..Of coarse you can run them straight clean nothing wrong with that but it's not the same..Blackface Fenders however seem to be a bit different,especially the ones with reverb that seem to add that other 1/2 gain stage due to the parallel reverb so these amps seem more lively at lower volumes..Of coarse they get there vibe when run into breakup as well....So without rambling any further I think every amp design has its favorable spots..Some just happen to be a bit louder than others..All in all I think you can still get a good sound from the ODS design at fairly reasonable vol levels (with lator) much better than say a 100w Plexi or a Trainwreck.. ..and the smaller clubs want me to run at unreasonable levels..IT"S A BAND!!

Some of this is of coarse my personal experience with these amps and what I expect to get out of them,and my other list were really a kind of guide line I use when picking amps..

Tony

This is kind of what I am thinking as well (accept you have nicer pedals )

Good luck hope it works out and let me know when you can how the H.O.F. does and I'll buy both pedals..

Tony

[ayan]

Good luck hope it works out and let me know when you can how the H.O.F. does and I'll buy both pedals..

Tony

I will. I don't need reverb that badly, so I'm sure I will be content with the HOF mini I just bought second hand on eBay. I do like the Flashback pedal a lot, I have the full-sized version and created my "custom" (Tone Print) patch back in the day so it's got some ducking and HF roll off, which is basically the same I have from my rack. I may have to create one patch for the HOF too, although I hope to like the one that comes standard in the mini.

Gil

[norburybrook]

Gil your board sounds very much like mine for similar reasons

my double buffer is underneath on the right with the in and outs. The pedals on the left all go through the FX loop.

I keep my Wah of the board and first in line if I use it.


Marcus

[ayan]

Gil your board sounds very much like mine for similar reasons

my double buffer is underneath on the left with the in and outs. The pedals on the right all go through the FX loop.

I keep my Wah of the board and first in line if I use it.


Marcus

I guess we all suffer from the same ailment...

My double buffer thing is not exactly that. I lifted the schematic from the internet somewhere about some 15 years ago, modified the circuit ever so slightly, and mirror imaged it so that I could have two of the same in one homebrew PCB. Since this is not a source follower design, it is capable of some gain. The white trimmers can adjust that, in my case for unity gain both at the input and output. Maybe someone wants to have fun building one of these. It does work well as a buffer due to its low output impedance, and the trimmers could be put outside for up to about 6dB of gain per stage. If the 2.2K resistor is bypassed, a lot more gain can be had, I built a pedal like that at some point and never used it. I understand it's hard to get quiet J201s these days, maybe a different FET type could be used instead.

Gil

[Charlie Wilson]

I like building pedals as well as amplifiers. That looks like a cool little buffer. Thanks for posting that Gil.
CW

[norburybrook]

I've built 2 of these into my in/out pedal like Gil.

Pete Cornish buffer. I got 2 pcb's for £5 so did them on pcb.

Marcus