This is a topic all on it's own and interesting points were raised in the previous discussion.
EDIT: The content below was taken from the previous thread and gives my thread a bit more substance.
Comments by Hogy.
Ken wouldn't deny that the Rocket was AC30 inspired, in fact if you look at his original flyer advertising the new "Liverpool Rocket Amp" it, it says as much.
The different power supply (totem pole vs. radial) makes a big difference, as does layout. Transformer, obviously.
The Songwriter is a different variation on that theme. It has become my favorite of the bunch, but a well set up Rocket is superb. It doesn't sound like an AC30 to me, and I'm a certified vintage AC30 nut. I have owned many of them, still have the two best ones I've ever heard. Between those AC30s (they are quite different from one another) and the Rocket, I have never felt redundancy.
The Rocket looks simple and is forgiving to build, but to get it to sound like Ken wanted it to isn't easy. The OT is crucial, but the tubes even more so. That amp responds to tube selection like no other. And without vintage Vox Alnicos, it isn't a Rocket.
I very much wanted to built a Rocket version under the Komet brand, but Ken wouldn't have it. He called it obsolete, because without the tubes and speakers, it would never be a Rocket.
Ken played his personal Rocket on a setup that consisted of two Vox cabs on top of each other. On the bottom a closed Royal Guardsman cab, Midax horn removed and opening blocked off. Fitted with original 1960s Vox Blues.
On top of that a 1963 AC30 extension cab that he converted to open back. Original speakers in it.
Comments by me.
Check out 1:10 and 1:47 for the differences between the silver back and the model Blues speaker.
So the question remains which speaker is closest to the old Silverback Vox?
I totally get the implications. I agree that the task of recreating what Ken had in his basement is impossible. New things are not old things.
Still, there is the urge to try. You may not have it all together but if you're lucky there's a piece or two that works together and offers up hope. At that point you can keep going or call it good and go home.
In the end, despite the impossibility of it, everything is relative - including Kens Rocket and his speaker bottoms in that basement; and therefore, anything is possible.
I also need to remind myself from time to time that a great player can make shit sound like gold. If we could play better we wouldn't need that stuff down in Ken's basement. Just sayin.
Most people stall out when fixing a mistake that they've made. Why?
A friend of mine replaced 2 speakers in his 18 watter with 2x12" "real" silverbell speakers. What a difference, everyone that plays that amp wants to buy it. I think speakers can be like many other things like transformers,tubes, to whatever. You may try 10 of the same type, but some will sound better than the others.
Hi Richie, I've played one of Barry's amps with two pre-Blues alnico speakers and it has THE TONE. The impression I get with the Blue that is currently available is that it is good but not vintage good. When I first bought a Blue I was a little disappointed as Guitarplayer magazine had given it such a big rap.
The recording shows the Silver back clearly sounding different to the blue. I'm wondering if it was a Chinese Blue or a U K made Blue?
The Silver backs in the recording clearly have better highs than the Celestion Blue speakers. I can see how this speaker would sound better with the Rocket. I'm wondering if the Weber Blue Dog or the Scumnicos would be a better match for the Rocket.
Hi Rooster, I'm not trying to replicate what was in Ken Fischer basement, but to find the correct speakers for the amp. It seems it is one thing to build the amp, but having the right speakers completes the amp.
I played through a good Express clone but the speakers were Celeston 65's in an open backed cab, the amp still sounded good but it wasn't what I'd expect to hear from an Express.
Mark;
I thought the blues were the UK made ones. I didn't know they also made them in china. I thought those were most of the other celestion speakers.
But they have so many its hard to keep up with them.
I'f scumback makes one, i'm sure it would be a great speaker.
Also weber makes a silver bell,and Warehouse guitar speakers makes a blue. Although 2x 15 watt speakers,might be pushing it on some higher dollar speakers.
Get two eminence Red fang drivers if you where in the market for Blues and you can take yourself out to dinner about 6 times with the savings and be within 3% of the tone that the blues have!
When I die, I want to go like my Grandfather did, peacefully in his sleep.
Not screaming like the passengers in his car!
Cutting out a man's tongue does not mean he’s a liar, but it does show that you fear the truth he might speak about you!
OK, first the Red Fangs. I happened to have purchased one of those when they first came out- and - also happened to have a conversation with Ted Weber Sr. at about the same time. He had no idea the Eminence Co. was making the Red Fang at the time, and he wanted me to describe the cone, dust cap, and spider to him over the phone. Which I did. He was upset about this speaker being produced and he told me that he had just spent time with Eminence developing the new alnico speaker that was used in the new Eric Clapton Twin that Fender was selling. He said that Eminence needed his help developing this speaker and that there was a gentleman's agreement between himself and Eminence that Eminence would not produce this speaker for sale other than in the EC amp.
Ted felt betrayed and he told me so. He was upset.
OK, but then let me tell you what I thought of this speaker. I didn't care for it. It was nothing to get excited about, Ted's Silver Bell was easily a better speaker - to my ear anyway - and I quickly sold it. Maybe the newer ones are better sounding, I dunno.
OK, back to Vox Silvers, the real deal ones. Yes, I have heard three different pairs of them in three different AC30TB amps, 2 '64s and one '66. They are different than any reissue I have heard, sure. What makes them different is this 'roaring' quality that they have when the amp is turned up. It's an assault of the main note's sweet top end and midrange, yes, but this is surrounded by what seems to be an added voice, this kind of 'roar' that is ever present and very encouraging to the player - if you know what I mean. In a way, it's kind of the same effect a great Tubescreamer adds to a SR, the note and then this added sound. It's unique. I played out of two '63s with Blues and they did not sound the same, FWIW, minus the roar somehow.
But let's talk about cabs for a minute. The Blues and Silvers I played were all in combos. Ken seems to have had 2/12 ext cabs, correct? And he also was said to like the half-back kind of thing, not the trad Vox thing with panels on top and bottom. Correct? Which means he replaced the backs. Correct?
Further, from what I have run into, I personally think a Vox ext cab with the stock panels is brighter than the same cab with a half-back. So it makes a great deal of sense to me that a very bright speaker sounds better in the modded cab than does a darker speaker. In my world, I think a bright speaker in a dark cab and a dark speaker in a bright cab is the best.
For example... I used to run one Weber Silver and one Weber Blue (Alnico 50 watters) in the half-back cab. One day I thought about this. I did like/love this combination for a time but suddenly I did not. It was not, finally, bright enough and lacked a certain clarity, IMO. As things would have it, I had another 2/12 cab open back (top and bottom panels) that was of a square design, approx 24X24X11, that I had loaded (diagonally) with a ASW KTS70 ceramic and a Scumnico 65. I didn't really love this cab or combination, to tell the truth. Which rather puzzled me because these are both nice speakers with a bright voice, something I like. I considered that maybe the problem was that the cab itself was bright, and that here I was pairing two bright speakers with a bright cab. ? And likewise, in the Vox, two dark speakers with a dark cab. ?
So I swapped the speakers. What I have now is two VERY good sounding cabs - and oddly enough - even though they have to sound different - they actually sound rather similar. OK, so this may seem a bit off topic, but I for one think you could have the right speakers in the wrong cab and miss by a mile. It's not just the speaker its the speaker in the cab. Ha, and going back to that Red Fang, I do allow that I never had the right cab for the speaker, sure, that's possible.
All of this said, QUESTION: DOES ANYONE HAVE A PICTURE OF THE BACK OF ONE OF THESE VOX CABS THAT KENNY USED? Isn't it funny to think that people would walk into his basement and hear this great sound, look at the amp(s) and cabs and not even consider the importance of the cab back?
Most people stall out when fixing a mistake that they've made. Why?
P.S., in rereading Mark's post I'm confused a bit. The Silver's came out in mid '64. So the 'original' speakers in the '63 2/12 ext would be Blues, not silver. Well, unless Kenny changed them. And if he did this, why do we think he had blues in the RG bottom?
Most people stall out when fixing a mistake that they've made. Why?
Thanks for taking time to give me that explanation, I really appreciate that.
I believe this comment by Hogy is what you are referring to.
Ken played his personal Rocket on a setup that consisted of two Vox cabs on top of each other. On the bottom a closed Royal Guardsman cab, Midax horn removed and opening blocked off. Fitted with original 1960s Vox Blues.
On top of that a 1963 AC30 extension cab that he converted to open back. Original speakers in it.
Rooster's question:
P.S., in rereading Mark's post I'm confused a bit. The Silver's came out in mid '64. So the 'original' speakers in the '63 2/12 ext would be Blues, not silver. Well, unless Kenny changed them. And if he did this, why do we think he had blues in the RG bottom?
Hogy did say this:
And without vintage Vox Alnicos, it isn't a Rocket.
Agreed it is all a bit odd. The Royal Guardsman pics I saw on the internet had the Vox Silver speakers whilst Hogy says Vox Blues and as you say the 63 AC-30 cab had Blues till mid 64.
Very strange indeed!
Getting back to cabs, I think the thickness of the baffle board has a lot to do with the sound of the cab. As well as the volume of the cab if it is sealed cab. I've heard dampening material also makes a difference to the sound of the cab. I have heard solid wood cabs sound more resonant than ply cabs, it sort of makes sense as the ply has to stiffer.
EDIT:I looked at Mark Fowler's Songwriter 30 thread and he has a link to Hogy's info where he recommends current production Celestion Blues for the S.W. 30.
I had wondered if the Scumnico's would be a step up from the Blues, I've heard they are quieter which isn't good with a Rocket.
