5E3 build questions

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Firestorm
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Re: 5E3 build questions

Post by Firestorm »

ToneMerc wrote:Firestorm, Fender used the brass plate because it made assembling the controls in the angled chassis less labor intensive. The pots,switches and components were stuffed and soldered to the brass plate as a sub assembly before moving to the next stage of building. Also, that " insulator" wasn't an insulator, but a fiber paper keeper to prevent the pot shaft from falling back through the brass plate hole prior to the knobs being put on when the assembly was mounted in the chassis. Think about it, not much chance of the plate being actually insulated when the pot shaft threaded bushing also contacts the brass plate and the chassis as well.

Sometime back I purchased about a dozen fully assembled late 70's control panels from someone that worked at Fender in the 70 and 80's. They were exactly as they came off the production line, all the fiber "insulators" were on the outside of the control plate, with none of the pots having nuts on them.I could take the plate assemblies turn them upside down and shake them, the pots would not fall back through because of the keeper.

TM
That's neat. Thanks for the explanation. I didn't think the backers truly provided much in the way of real insulation, but by the time I've seen them forty years later they were no longer stiff enough to hold anything.

Fender was amazing in their ability to mass produce things by hand; the hand-wired amps currently being produced there still use nearly identical sub-assembly procedures. And the guitars: the way Leo cut fret slots and installed frets was just sick.
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ToneMerc
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Re: 5E3 build questions

Post by ToneMerc »

Firestorm wrote:
ToneMerc wrote:Firestorm, Fender used the brass plate because it made assembling the controls in the angled chassis less labor intensive. The pots,switches and components were stuffed and soldered to the brass plate as a sub assembly before moving to the next stage of building. Also, that " insulator" wasn't an insulator, but a fiber paper keeper to prevent the pot shaft from falling back through the brass plate hole prior to the knobs being put on when the assembly was mounted in the chassis. Think about it, not much chance of the plate being actually insulated when the pot shaft threaded bushing also contacts the brass plate and the chassis as well.

Sometime back I purchased about a dozen fully assembled late 70's control panels from someone that worked at Fender in the 70 and 80's. They were exactly as they came off the production line, all the fiber "insulators" were on the outside of the control plate, with none of the pots having nuts on them.I could take the plate assemblies turn them upside down and shake them, the pots would not fall back through because of the keeper.

TM
That's neat. Thanks for the explanation. I didn't think the backers truly provided much in the way of real insulation, but by the time I've seen them forty years later they were no longer stiff enough to hold anything.

Fender was amazing in their ability to mass produce things by hand; the hand-wired amps currently being produced there still use nearly identical sub-assembly procedures. And the guitars: the way Leo cut fret slots and installed frets was just sick.
The keepers were a slick idea; they were raised which allowed them to be picked up easier and would grap the pot shaft, but when the plate was mounted to the chassis, they flattened out and thats why when you disassemble an amp they look like a normal paper washer. Yes, Fender ( pre-CBS anyway)was very ingenious while balancing frugality, reliabilty and customers needs.

TM
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Randall
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Re: 5E3 build questions

Post by Randall »

So if I understand this, the brass plate is not necessary if the 18g wire is used. It is grounded at the input jacks (which are mechanically grounded to the chassis). The wire is not connected to the pots, the pots are also mechanically grounded at the chassis. It is really only the preamp grounds that are effected in this way. Is this correct?

And concerning the 18g ground wire, is it only attached at one end, and floating at the other? I'd sure like to see a pic of this.
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ToneMerc
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Re: 5E3 build questions

Post by ToneMerc »

Randall wrote:So if I understand this, the brass plate is not necessary if the 18g wire is used. It is grounded at the input jacks (which are mechanically grounded to the chassis). The wire is not connected to the pots, the pots are also mechanically grounded at the chassis. It is really only the preamp grounds that are effected in this way. Is this correct?

And concerning the 18g ground wire, is it only attached at one end, and floating at the other? I'd sure like to see a pic of this.
Randall, here's a recent 6G6B build that I did. I soldered 16 AWG tags on the buss bar which are attached to the appropriate lugs on the pots. The 16 AWG stands the bar up and the end of the bar towards the inputs jacks has a wire attached to it which terminates at that chassis ground lug.

https://tubeamparchive.com/download/file.php?id=25139

TM
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Randall
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Re: 5E3 build questions

Post by Randall »

Thanks TM. A pic is really worth 1,000 words! Now I see what I was missing concerning what I thought was double grounding the pots. Of course the ground lugs are not soldered to the cases as usual, which is how they get chassis grounded normally. I like it.

It appears that your input jacks are simply getting their grounds through the chassis fastenings? What is your thinking here?

You see, I ran across a physics term paper where the student used a Fender made 5E3 as a term paper. Everything was precisely measured and explained as he went about cleaning up the ground noise in the amp. One of the things he noted was how much the amp's grounding could be improved upon, and part of that was isolating the input jacks and pots. He also went the star grounding route, even separating the line power and PT primary contact point from everything else. I think that paper messed with me a little!
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Randall
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Re: 5E3 build questions

Post by Randall »

Firestorm wrote: That's the main filter; in BF amps, Fender kept it charged while the amp was on Standby by putting it on the hot side of the Standby switch. In the 5E3, that would be the first 16uF cap. If you want a Standby switch in your build, the hot side would go to the output of the rectifier and the 16uF cap; the cold side would go to the 5K resistor and the OT center tap.
Thanks Firestorm, that makes perfect sense. I wasn't seeing those caps in other schematics as the main filter section, but it's clear now. I wonder why the 763 Deluxe Reverb had a main filter cap and a standby switch but the 5E3 doesn't?
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ToneMerc
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Re: 5E3 build questions

Post by ToneMerc »

Randall wrote:Thanks TM. A pic is really worth 1,000 words! Now I see what I was missing concerning what I thought was double grounding the pots. Of course the ground lugs are not soldered to the cases as usual, which is how they get chassis grounded normally. I like it.

It appears that your input jacks are simply getting their grounds through the chassis fastenings? What is your thinking here?

You see, I ran across a physics term paper where the student used a Fender made 5E3 as a term paper. Everything was precisely measured and explained as he went about cleaning up the ground noise in the amp. One of the things he noted was how much the amp's grounding could be improved upon, and part of that was isolating the input jacks and pots. He also went the star grounding route, even separating the line power and PT primary contact point from everything else. I think that paper messed with me a little!

Yes, input jacks are grounded at the chassis with an ext tooth star washer in between pot body and chassis face.

1. Preamp cathodes, input cable shields, signal ground reference all tied @ buss bar.
2. PT center tap, B+ filter ground are together.
3. Power tube cathodes, heater filament CT and screen supply are tied at the same point .


TM
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Randall
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Re: 5E3 build questions

Post by Randall »

Amen TM. Thank you.
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Randall
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Re: 5E3 build questions

Post by Randall »

OK then, another question. I purchased a couple of Mercury Magnetics FTDP power transformers. Now I read where people say they are too hot for a 5E3, at 380 - 0 -380v. I do plan on using a NOS 5Y3 rectifier, so that should gve me a lower B+. But I don't want to add voltage dropping zeners or resistors, I want to keep it original. Did I order the wrong trafo?
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ToneMerc
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Re: 5E3 build questions

Post by ToneMerc »

Randall wrote: I want to keep it original. Did I order the wrong trafo?
So you purchased a Mercury Magnetics clone of a power transformer pulled from an actual original 1954 Deluxe, but it's so original that apparently its wrong? Sure get's confusing doesn't it? The HT voltage around 350V seems popular with folks.

All the research and energy that goes onto a build is the less sexy stuff that occurs before you ever touch a soldering iron.

TM
wyatt
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Re: 5E3 build questions

Post by wyatt »

Randall wrote:OK then, another question. I purchased a couple of Mercury Magnetics FTDP power transformers. Now I read where people say they are too hot for a 5E3, at 380 - 0 -380v. I do plan on using a NOS 5Y3 rectifier, so that should gve me a lower B+. But I don't want to add voltage dropping zeners or resistors, I want to keep it original. Did I order the wrong trafo?
There are a couple of ways to look at this.

The 380-0-380 is uncompensated for modern 120V wall voltage. Mercury Magentics, Classictone and others wound their original 5E3 OT to the exact same specs as the original 110V PT.

What Triad wound as 110VAC:700VAC becomes 120VAC:760VAC when plugged into your outlet.

The transformer itself is period-correct, and original spec, it's just your household voltage is not. So people offer "compensated" 5E3 PT's that are anything from 325-0-325 to 350-0-350. Your choice now is do you want the 5E3 to run like it did in the '50's? ... or do you want it to behave like a real '50's 5E3 plugged into a 120VAC wall socket?

Companies and builders are somewhat split over this. The higher voltage is safe to run as long as you can bias the tubes safely.

And as someone who has compared the 710V and 660V in the same amp with switching secondaries (it's what I used the old Ground switch location for)...the tonal differences are minute. I had originally rigged it up as switchable because I owned a 1960 Tweed Deluxe for years which ran uncompensated and I was curious if I would loose something with the lower voltage. I did not, if anything my clone was a little smoother and more musical (that can be attributed to lots of parts, or all of them) and I settled and hard-wired in the 660V taps full-time ad left the switch unused.

My build (I'll add these as attachments later)...
[img:800:598]http://wyattpoist.com/misc/5E3_Project/IMG_2103.JPG[/img]
[img:800:598]http://wyattpoist.com/misc/5E3_Project/IMG_1503.jpg[/img]
[img:800:598]http://wyattpoist.com/misc/5E3_Project/IMG_1517.jpg[/img]

My grounding (for me the mains filter, screens filter, cathode cap.resistor and heater reference went to the PT bolt; the preamp filter, pots, preamp grounds and jacks went to the Ground buss...the buss doesn't touch the chassis on the left, that's an optical illusion)...
[img:800:598]http://wyattpoist.com/misc/5E3_Project/IMG_1501.jpg[/img]
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Randall
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more questions

Post by Randall »

My MM PT says not to ground the center tap, which I don't understand. If the Fender scheme has one side of the winding going to ground, and I run both wires across the heaters, how does it get it's ground if I don't ground the center tap. Confused.

Also, why the straps to ground off you tube sockets? Thanks.
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martin manning
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Re: 5E3 build questions

Post by martin manning »

I recommend not following the old Fender layout here. Run both filament leads to the first power tube socket and then on down the line with more wire as usual. Do not ground either side, but ground the center tap. MM's instructions are presumably for someone replacing the PT in an original 5E3.
pops
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Re: 5E3 build questions

Post by pops »

Mercury has a low B+ PT that i like to use in a 5e3. Puts my plate voltage right in that 305v range and sounds great.
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ampmike
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Nice

Post by ampmike »

Nice work Wyatt,Love the look of the caps,Thats a sweet build,Really nice,Mikey
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