Guiguang El-34's

[Structo]

Yes indeed they are moving ahead at a much more rapid pace than any other country in history now.

They are committed to building a modern infrastructure with many new dams and highways systems.
They are consuming over 60% of the worlds cement supply.

I wonder sometimes how long their communist government can last but as long as they keep their comrades down they will rule with an iron fist.

One of the problems with their relaxed business regulations is that a factory or distributor can be anywhere from a house to a large building.

A business making a certain electronic device or component can take place in somebody's living room or a garage somewhere with no rules or regulations for worker safety or guarantee of wages.

I still think that one day we will have to reckon with China and it won't end well at all.

[Structo]

I did a little research on the GuiGuang Tube Factory in China.

Bear with me as I translate from Chinese.

Originally the Liuzhou Electron Tube Factory, they were bought out and moved its whole set of equipment and technology to Nanhai District of Foshan City.

The Liuzhou Electron Tube Factory halted its production and was shut down in 2000.
In 2007 the Foshan Nanhai Guiguang Electron Tube Factory bought the company.
The equipment were moved to Nanhai District, Foshan. After a two year period, a large input of labor, materials and capital on the overall maintenance, renewal and technological innovation of the equipment, especially in technological innovations, which not only retain the original design technologies, process and procedures, but also introduce a lot of modern advanced equipment and technology to perfect the product.

The technical parameters have all been greatly enhanced.
The factory has entered mass production currently.
We are sincerely expecting tube amplifier manufacturers, audio fans and all circles of society to give us support and offer us your precious suggestions so that we can serve you better.

[Markusv]

Well-

Let's offer them our suggestions as a forum
Perhaps that would provide some impact?

What are the ideal characteristics?
Ruggedness/ Metal composition/voltage handling?

I'm a novice at these things but it's not often you get asked to suggest QA parameters

Markus

[gldtp99]

And the fact is that new tubes are available from China---- i just looked at an online tube vendor's site and NOS Mullard xf2's are $200/ea---NOS RCA Blackplate 6L6GC's are also $200/ea but these are singles only, no matched pairs.
These great output tubes just aren't an option for most players i deal with----- last week the guitar player of a young, hot band out of Dallas talked to me about getting one of the heads i've built---- he'd used some of them in my friend's studio on their new album--- he has a newer Vox 50 watt channel switcher 2x12 combo but isn't in love with it and wanted one of mine for live performance/recording--- he said he has @$400 to spend and wanted to know what i had to sell him for that price (one of the 50 watt heads he recorded with ? for $400 ? no F'ing way!!)-- he's been trying to unload his Vox but nobody wants it (i don't---not even on a trade)-- how am i supposed to build great sounding 50-ish watt amps that i'm happy to put my name on, have them look well made (tolexed head cabs, nice faceplates, etc) and sell them for $400 ? And use great sounding NOS output tubes, too ? it just isn't going to happen unless i want to give my work away for free (at a net loss) and look at it as supporting local music---- something i have done in the past a few times.
This example is similar to where most of my potential customers are at financially---- they just don't have loads of extra cash so they play the best amps that they can afford.
So sometimes i end up building amps with iron recycled from old PA heads, locally made bare wood head cabs, no or basic faceplates, and definately no NOS tubes. These really aren't the amps i want to build but i do build some of them.
I'm very interested in any new tube offerings from anywhere that are reasonably priced---and keep the great old tubes for my own stuff or for the few i meet that want (and can afford) them............................gldtp99

[Structo]

I hear ya.

It seems that "poor" and "musician" usually go hand in hand, unfortunately.

Unless they can get a record deal (unlikely today) and go national or they have rich daddy's, many can't afford much in the way of equipment.

I don't know what the future holds for guitar based music.
When I tune the TV in on what the kids are listening to it really makes me fell old.
Because to me, rap, hip hop and any of those genres are just not music.

Basically if it doesn't have a melody, I'm not interested.

I never understood why a white affluent kid would want to listen to gangster rap on their expensive car stereo with subwoofers kickin' the bass.
Well maybe that's it, to have the bass pumpin' at 130 decibels so they can be heard and felt from four blocks away......

Another way to bug older people just like we did with our rock.

But like I said, if it don't have a melody, I ain't interested.

Excuse me, there's somebody on my yard outside...................HEY YOU!!

[Prairie Dawg]

Their glassware is good enough for my purposes. I do wish that Shuguang would make their GZ34s more reliable. They've got the price thing right but if they get the durability right nobody'll buy anything else.

[renshen1957]

In general chinese tubes are lacking bass and midrange of the xf2's.

Sure, they copied the mechanical design, thats what they do well, but thats not what gives one brand of tube their signiture sound, its the alloy content of the metal.

China has a national obsession with cheating on formulation of anything, especially metal.

When they can make a decent saw or screwdriver I'll consider buying something more complicaed from there.

I've also seen chinese KT88's remind me who invented fireworks.

John

Hi John,

The Chinese make every level of quality for every conceivable product from Platinum down to crap.

US companies go over to China to purchase the lowest priced goods to sell at the highest mark up in the US under their brand name, so you can imagine what grade of material they purchase.

It's called capitalism.

And the US consumer doesn't boycott these companies and retailers. It's called apathy.

Japan's consumer don't put up with shoddy merchandise, they willing to pay the price and reject substandard quality.

OEM Guitar Amp manufacturers have been purchasing tubes from China and Russia for quite sometime since the West stopped producing tubes.S ince accountants rule most Guitar Corporations, they aren't going out of their way to spend money for a top of the line tube. When was the last time you ran to the guitar store to purchase a Peavey, Fender, or heaven forbid a Bugera tube for your amp?

Shuguang Treasure makes some great tubes (including a KT88 and EL34s) with special alloys and interior coatings, and higher quality material. Psvane produces a 12AX7 preamp and these are in my experience better than New Sensors Gold Lion Brand offerings. However, musicians won't pay Audiophile prices for better tubes.

China (and Russia) have improved their quality (if not the longevity) of their consumer grade tubes. But instead of crushing the rejected tubes, these are sold and most likely to sellers on Ebay.

Ruby and TAD have STR that have garnered some positive reviews. Is it there screening process, paying extra for better material, QC or hokum from the companies trying to sell the brands?

Do the new Chinese tubes equal the quality of a xf2 Mullard? Not now at guitar amp price point. Possibly at $240/ matched pair or 6CA7 Treasures, but I haven't had a chance to purchase a set, yet.

I wouldn't dismiss the Chinese. Without the benefit of Spies, they produced a Hydrogen bomb. It took the United States more than seven years from its first A-bomb test to its first hydrogen bomb test, the USSR, four years, and the UK, four and a half years. While in China, it only took two years and two months, a surprise to the entire world.

The Chinese send Astronauts into outer space, have a Magnet lift Train (the US just has a test circle) make their own jet fighters and have plans to build their own space station(s). The US right now is only 1 out of 4 of the above, as the Space Shuttle was retired (talk about fragile engineering).

Best Regards and Happy New Year.

Steve

PS, I have experienced the best that money can buy from China, it's world class if you want to pay for it.

[Cantplay]

Their metallurgy is still a farce.

I get deliveries of brass barstock in at work, and I have to check it with a magnet. It sticks slightly to brass from China, because some sharp pencil discovered that while copper is $4/Lb, iron is $8/Ton. I only discovered this after some finished items started to rust.

I have a customer who makes plastic childrens toys in China. They have to test every batch for lead.


Do Chinese make good hand tools, the equivalent of Snap-On, Hazet, or Facom? I have yet to see any. Nor have I seen any good drill bits, taps or toolbits.

Everyone knows they faked their spacewalk.

http://youtu.be/lBL98p0wZ7g

Yes, I've seen QC improve on stuff from there. Its not where it needs to be yet. As their own citizens become more wealthy they will eventually demand better goods.

After the war, Japan adopted much of the German mfg ethic, and they now make world class products in some catagories.

Back to EL34's:

Winged C are nearly as good as real Mullards, and still nowhere near their cost.

John

[cbass]

It all comes down to greed The US was The manufacturing giant.With high quaility products.China is still nowhere close to making products to the quality they used to be made here.

Remember washing machines that lasted 25 years.Fridges that lasted forever.Trucks you could drive for 30 years.We still have a zenith TV made in springfeild MO thats at least from '85 still works great.Remeb=mber when a pair of boots lasted most of a lifetime.Remeber when Wal mart bought American and wasn't a bad place to work.

I've seen factory after faCtory shut down in my little town.So what happened? a bunch of guys that were already very rich decided they could be super rich.If They had crap built in other countries.The best part for them now you have to buy a wash machine every 5 years in stead of 30.

I'm sure these CEO's gave no thought orr didn't care if they did. as to how this would affect America in the future.

To me the solution is simple.Tax the piss out of products manufactured in other countries.Give tax breaks to companies that manufacture in the US.
You won't be able to get a dvd player for $9.99 any more But I think I could live with that.

Theres a small amount of blame on the american workers too.Someone making $34 an hour to stand here and turn a bolt all day.Lets go on strike.

If a factory opened here and would pay $12 an hour there would be people lined up around the block to work there.

[Markusv]

I think it has been said inadvertently before

Chinese quality or a lack thereof is not a matter of capability/scientific sophistication/ skill/ know-how/technological advancement

I have Chinese and Korean students who consistently kick the crap out of my other students both academically and in terms of coachability and the willingness to win.

It is a matter of price point

"the world wants stuff and they want to pay little for it.- we will make crap stuff and charge little but the turn-over will be obscene and we will have them by the balls because they love to have stuff now- instead of saving a while till they can afford lasting quality"

Markus V

[Gibsonman63]

Since we are drifting off subject...

The CEOs are not the only ones to blame here. Our goverment is not exactly friendly to business. Many of the older manufacturing facilities can't compete because of the unions and trying to open a new facility that deals with anything even remotely toxic is an uphill battle.

The job market will never be that same again. There's not much need for a $30/hr or even a $12/hr bolt turner anymore, but there's a shortage of skilled workers available that can maintain and program the equipment needed for modern manufacturing. That does not even take into account the number of unskilled workers entering the job market illegally willing to work for much less.

The global economy will eventually be the great equalizer. As the Chinese standard of living increases, it will eventually become impossible for thier government to artifically deflate thier currency.

At one point, many of the engineering jobs were going to India. Now that thier standard of living has started to increase, it isn't the bargain that companies had hoped for given the logistics and productivity compared to hiring and supervising people locally. I worked for a company that tried that for a couple of years. Instead of Engineering, we were writing detailed procedures. In many cases, to get the job done correctly, required more hours writing procedures than it would have taken to do the engineering.

The Chinese are merely abiding my the contracts of the purchasers. Unless specified, they will produce products the cheapest possible way because that is what is expected and acceptable. As companies demanding higher quality tighten up thier specifications, the quality will improve and so will the price.

I personally would welcome a manufacturer that could produce tubes rivaling the NOS tubes we all drool over even if the price increases over current production tubes now available.

[Structo]

From my experience and talking to people in my area the biggest obstacles for manufacturing just about anything is the strict environmental laws and codes we have here.

There are so many rules and regulations that it makes it just about impossible to establish a new manufacturing business.
I'm sure it has forced the closure of a lot of existing businesses that were old companies that just couldn't meet the bottom line any longer.

Don't get me wrong, I think we should take care of our planet and not pollute it.
But when you have to pay for a million dollar environmental impact study before the first shovel can hit the dirt, then you pretty much put a new business out of reach for the average person or group.

It's quite a racket for these study groups as well and very lucrative.

There is a new bridge project that has been needed for years on a major river crossing.
To date I think I read they have spent $150 million and not one shovel of dirt has been lifted.

I don't know what the answer is but I think there is a growing majority that thinks we ought to be making more stuff in the USA.
That is what this country was known for, for the last two hundred years but now we import 75% of our goods.

[jelle]

Well, we all vote with our wallets, every single day. Stimulate the businesses you like.

[renshen1957]

Their metallurgy is still a farce.

I get deliveries of brass barstock in at work, and I have to check it with a magnet. It sticks slightly to brass from China, because some sharp pencil discovered that while copper is $4/Lb, iron is $8/Ton. I only discovered this after some finished items started to rust.

John

Hi John,

I have received good brass from China and bad brass from China, through American firms. I use a magnet, too.

China is the second largest importer of food to the US and about 90% of the Vitamin C and other Vitamins and Supplements are imported from there. Same problem, companies trying to sell to a price point instead of making quality.

I blame this on also on MBA's. The same could be said about Fenders quality slide over the years since CBS sold out. The only reason Fender has come out with product improvement in their guitars have been companies like Callaham, Fralin, Tone Quest, Glendale, etc that made after market products that were Vintage quality, which Fender Products weren't.

Unfortunately, its hard to get stuff that isn't made in China. I won't pick on any one Stainless Machine Screw vendor, but these are almost all Chinese Screws now. The companies up in Michigan that provided these and other Steel bolts went to Chinese sources after the Auto Makers had their last set back.

I would pay double for US material if I could get it (especially for nails and wood screws), but locally no one stocks it.

My main electronics (non amplifier) account wants to sell their product for 400% above his total cost. I have to use Chinese source power transformers not because I like them, but to reach his price point. I use every component that is made in the US and available but many electronics firms don't offer US parts.

I have a customer who makes plastic childrens toys in China. They have to test every batch for lead.

My Mom wouldn't let me play with any toy made in Japan because of lead paint and I am over 50. However, all the metal American made playground equipment contained lead coatings.

Astro Turf has lead in it, and recently found to be a source for potential lead poisoning for High School Football players.

Do Chinese make good hand tools, the equivalent of Snap-On, Hazet, or Facom? I have yet to see any. Nor have I seen any good drill bits, taps or toolbits.

My brother in law sent hand tools from China which were just as good. The Titanium Nitride drill bits that Black and Decker sold (Chinese origin) worked just as well.

Everyone knows they faked their spacewalk.

The US Govt' takes it seriously, which by the way there are still people that maintain the US moon walk was faked.

After the war, Japan adopted much of the German mfg ethic, and they now make world class products in some catagories.

Actually the Japanese made great products before the war, The Long Lance Torpedo worked unlike the US Torpedo at the beginning of the war, and It took a hell of a number of bombs and Torpedoes to sink the Yamato far more than any US Battleship would have withstood.

A Samurai sword wasn't a shabby piece of engineering, either.

However the Japanese made on Mullard equipment 12AX7 in the 1970s weren't the same as the Blackburn tubes. Again, a price point issue. The CV4004 Mullards made in India (by an affiliate) used by the Royal Navy were excellent and from about the same vintage.

Back to EL34's:

Winged C are nearly as good as real Mullards, and still nowhere near their cost.

John

A Quad of C's cost me about $124 wholesale, Valve Art (Shuguang) $42, TAD $76.

I like the JJs EL34.

Golden Gate (Guigang) run about $50 per quad, and $68 per quad (Gold Pins). At that price point, I wouldn't expect Shuguang Treasure quality at $480 per quad.

I have a Quad Winged C's NOS for recording. I like these very much.

Best Regards

Steve

[Luthierwnc]

We're going about this all wrong.

I don't have a dog in the fight on tube preference but I do believe in supply and demand. Demand it (meaning be willing to pay a fair price for what you want) and it will be supplied. Supply it and you will find a clearing price in the market.

Right now the collective understand of current tube; manufacturing, QC, durability, tone and specs is largely the random opinions of individuals with widely varying degrees of experience. Since tube makers change locations like meth labs, one batch may be nothing like the last.

As long as the demand part of the equation is disorganized, we deserve what we get. So let's get smart. Organize a sticky with polls and everyone with experience with a given tube say what you got, how you like it, how long did it last and who sold (and hopefully tested) it. Tie in with some of the other tube sites to pool the wisdom. Moderate it to keep it on track without political or ethnic bias. Ask for a trivial donation to pay for it.

I don't have the time but I've got the first ten bucks if someone who knows more about computers than I do wants to take this on. If enough of us cough-up, we're on our way. If not, we can keep being victims and whining about the good old days.

So who's in?

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