59 wiring for les paul

[rooster]

"The second is to change the linearity of the sweep." ??

OK. here I am doubtful of anybody's skills with anything short of a computer controlled X-Y-Z micro laser beam cutter. And I say this because - if the trace goes from large to small - you would leave the front part of the trace alone and then very gradually, and at particular points along the trace (perhaps?), remove a bit more. And this is in a circular path? And you can't test your results until you reassemble the pot? Ha, this is asking too much I think.

So I will pass on this effort. But to raise the resistance, sure, go to the end of the trace and scrap away, that's do-able.

OK, a big thanks to all here for the insight and info. It is crazy to consider that such a nicely tapered pot such as the Centralab version, for example, would ever go out of style. What were guitar makers thinking?And then to see all the effort people go through to try and replicate it. Crazy.

[billyz]

Another thing that can vary the resistance is the composition of the track. I have seen tracks that clearly had two different compositions of material joined with a tapered joint.

[billyz]

I would like to say one more thing about all this. I personally do not sweat over whether a pot measures 474K or 525K. I doubt I can hear the difference. But , I make a living doing stuff like this. If a client wants all his pots to measure over 500k then I 'll oblige. And I do like knowing how stuff works. If I can add some value or extra mojo and make a buck, I'm game.
I do know the taper makes a difference if you like to do volume swells or even use more positions on your controls , like I do. I find the old Centralab and stackpole pots to be superior in this regard.

sorry , if I sound a bit cynical. I am not, I enjoy this stuff and am lucky to be able to make a living doing what I enjoy.

I do think it is screwey that gibson puts linear taper pots in their guitars, especially the Historic Custom shop models.

[vibratoking]

OK. here I am doubtful of anybody's skills with anything short of a computer controlled X-Y-Z micro laser beam cutter. And I say this because - if the trace goes from large to small - you would leave the front part of the trace alone and then very gradually, and at particular points along the trace (perhaps?), remove a bit more. And this is in a circular path? And you can't test your results until you reassemble the pot? Ha, this is asking too much I think.

I have not successfully modified a pot's taper, yet. I have only tried one pot and was very close until I put a small scratch across the track as mentioned in a previous post. You can test your results as you go by using an ohmeter and touching the probes to the track, just as the contact touches the track. Sliding the probe around the track will allow you to measure the incremental resistance. I will be trying again on another POS pot so that a failure will not cause me too much hassle. I believe this can be done succesfully and I am sure many others have done it.

[rooster]

OK, one last followup here. Er, yeah, this post caused me a lot of thought - and ultimately has caused me to move further into experimenting with the pots I do have on hand.

What I have on hand are some old Fender amp CTS pots from 68-72, some RSGuitarworks, and some Dimarzio Super pots - (the early pots being actual 30% taper pots used in early Fender amps, and, BTW, they are great because you can separate the trace from the shaft and substitute either a sold shaft (Tele) or a knurled shaft (Strat) by swapping case parts. )

Dealing with the RS and Dimarzio pots then, this is what I found. The RS pots (CTS) are 30%, with a caveat. Here I believe the front of the taper or trace has been sanded/scraped to add more resistance, which in turn will bring up the overall pot resistance. Which is to say that the RS pot is 550K, not 500K, the extra 50K being added by sanding or scraping the front of the trace.

Explaining that, let me add that the Dimarzio pot (CTS) is 20% taper, but measures 500K. Which is to say, that as I reworked the Dimarzio, I was able to add 50K to the front of the pot making the taper 30%, but which also raised the pot value to 550K, identical to the RS pot at this point.

??? Well, my conclusion, looking at these two pots and reworking the Dimarzio, is that 20% is the best that CTS can do with their traces. It is from reworking the trace that the RS CTS pot can get pretty close to 30%. ..And I find this really interesting.

Also, of note, I am now saying - contrary to what I said before - that it's the front half of the pot that needs to be reworked. And here, don't go past mid point of the trace. Yes, you will raise the overall pot value, but you will get a better 'vintage' taper.

Another thing, when you go to RS's site, take a look at what they offer for a 250K pot? They only show 280K values in the Custom/Super Taper version pot. Which is to say - to me anyway - that it started out at 20%, but the front part of the trace was reworked to add 25K, bringing the overall DC resistance to 275K-280K. BTW, I can't tell you who does this reworking, whether RS or CTS, but I am positive that this is the same 'stock' trace used in either pot.

Alright, another thing about the RS and Dimarzio pot, the shaft is attached to the trace. It uses a c-clip affair to do this. I think if you are a machinist and have a small clip remover, you can separate everything, if you must. On the other hand I find you can 'get in there' with a small piece of 600grit paper, slide it under the wiper, and wipe/sand the pot trace instead. Using this method I was able to bring the 500K and 250K Dimarzio pots I have on hand up to the 30% taper area. In point of fact, while experimenting I brought one 500K Dimarzio up to 688K. It measured 250K at 1/2 rotation. Yeah, too much sanding but maybe not a bad fit for a HB neck pickup position? And when you do the math, this is more than a 30% taper, more like 32% actually. And it sounds great in one of my LPs, on a pickup I really don't care too much for, a Duncan 'Jazz'.

Whew, OK, enuff from me. In the end, grabbing this bull by the horn, has been incredibly rewarding. The old Fender pots were sitting in a box and it hadn't occurred to me that I could change the shaft at will. Which is to say that having now installed one of each of these in a Strat and a Tele, I am quite home with these guitars now. Man, everything works better, the amps and the pedals!!!! Thank you guys for this post!!!

[billyz]

Rooster, thanks for your follow up report and your further experiments with sanding just the front portion of the carbon track.

[C Moore]

Am I reading this correctly....... 120 dollars for TWO USED potentiometers.?
https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... 0e9c3d8cdd

Do me a favour and save the passive aggressive bullshit for someone that is interested.

Hey, there is no aggression intended by me. Sorry if you feel that way, but that's your problem.

Here's the facts. I measured two parts of each type and the data shows no difference. I am looking for an alternative solution that provides a measurable solution. I reported the information so that other potential buyers don't have the same negative experience I had. I spent $29+shipping for two pots that did NOTHING to solve the problem. I mentioned that I believe this fits into the conclusion that Glen K posted about in at least one other thread on this site. Here is the post: https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... 0e9c3d8cdd

Glad you like and enjoy them.

[rooster]

Oh, I hadn't seen that post by Glen. Wow, that part about the pot's overall values, that makes for some intersting comparisons. Thanks for linking that, I missed that before, hired hand!!!

[ OK, by now, after writing the above paragraph, I went back AGAIN to read that entire post that hired hand attached and see that I was all over that post!! Ha!! And honestly, at the time I actually missed his comment about the super high resistive values of some of his Centralab pots. Also I will now ask AGAIN (just like I did in that old post!), how exactly did Glen get those resistive value readings with the pots turned down? He never came back there to explain that and I can't duplicate the measursments no matter what I try. His data still makes no sense to me. ???]

Well in which case, given my investment and results, my reworking of the Dimarzio Custom Taper $6.95 pot is quite a value. Yeah, that 688K pot I ended up with is looking pretty good, actually.

I would also very quickly say that Glen is incorrect when he says that the 250K pots with a good taper are easy to be found - easier than a good 500K. And I say this because some guys are into a 'darker' Fender sound, like say 230K, and this can't even happen with that modded pot. You have to accept the 275K number at best. But if he is talking about the RS 280K pot, well yeah, that's there.

Also, another note about another pot brand, Mighty Mite. They make a 'sealed' pot that AES sells with a knurled shaft. They are sealed but they are easy to open. And when you do this, you will see something (based on other pots constrution) INCREDIBLE inside - a trace that seems to be a metal band with a carbon coating - around the inside of the pot shell! This is crazy construction relative to the construction of other pots. Taking a 250k pot (that actually measured 220K) I was able to increase it's resistance to 60K at mid point (up from 32K/13% taper), which brought the overall pot value up to 244K, giving it an almost 23% taper. I stopped here just because the trace is difficult to work with and I really don't have a need for this pot right now. Too, the trace itself is a mystery to me - (and I am not sure how much sanding it can take and still perform well). I do think it an interesting pot for a couple of reasons. First, the construction, and then the low resistive value from the gate. Also, FWIW, the mechanical feel is brisk, something that will not change over time I imagine, which may or may not appeal to some players.

Well, OK, more personal madness revealed.

P.S. I answer to your $120 question, was that a serious question? Glen got a great deal there if you think otherwise. The Centralab pots bring the big $$.

[C Moore]

Yeah, it was a serious question. Is CenterLab more than an off the shelf part.?
Thanks

[rooster]

OK, serious answer then, and search ebay and you will get more $$ info, of course.

These are no longer made, the Centralab pots. And they were in the early Gibson guitars that all my heroes played, and still play. Their taper is about 30% or slightly more sometimes. This taper is because of manufacturing techniques and - more importantly - because of manufacturing results that were demanded by the end users. And here, I think the military was the largest customer. For example, B-52 Bombers used to have tube radios in them and the headset operator needed to have a lot of control - which the taper offered. Eh, benefit there to guitar players, thank you, US Military. Er, FWIW, also keep in mind, Centralab wasn't the only US manufacturer at the time making 30% taper pots, CTS is another.

Anyway, so they have gone away. And the demand is here, but overall only by the few that understand what a taper like this offers. Most manufacturers today offer only 10% or 20% tapers.

So people look on ebay and spend what it takes to have the magic. I've heard $125 per pot, although I suspect these prices are driven by folks wanting to get their older Gibson up to speed, having all the period correct parts, eh? But still, there are people like Glen who *know*, and who has a contemporary LP that he wanted these pots in. If you *know*, you understand his need. And yeah, he did pretty well there. Now go check out ebay auctions.

Now did I take you seriously enough?

[C Moore]

Hey rooster -
That is kind of what I figured, a supply and demand thing. It just depends if it is worth it to the individual. I would never spend that kind of money on a pot, so they have no value to me. I would love to have a bucket full so I could sell them at 120 dollars a pair.
But if you want to talk about my Winchester Model 94 in 25-35......I see where guys get a soft spot for things. We all place a different value on products I guess. Funny how the military ultimately has an effect on so many aspects of our lives, whether we want them to or not......
Thanks for the great info......

[ampbldr2]

I finally finished my upgrade with new pots/caps and 59 wiring. I went with the A500K superpots in the vol and standard A500K rs pots in the tone controls and used the rs jensen oil caps. I used .015 in the neck and .022 in the bridge. Right of the bat i can tell the clarity in the bridge pickup which is a 2005 Semore Duncan Seth Lover 50th anniversary. Hard to tell much difference in the Neck pickup but the bridge im really impressed in the clarity.

Im also pretty happy with the service i got from RS Guitar Works. The day i received my parts i wound up breaking the ground lug on one of the superpots as i was bending it while it was mounted in the cavity of the guitar. I emailed them about it and put in another order for a replacement part. They only charged me shipping and sent me a replacement. That was really cool of them to do that! I am now considering doing a similar upgrade to my SG Faded which sounds muddy compared to my LP.

Thanks again for all the info in this thread.

[Reeltarded]

Am I reading this correctly....... 120 dollars for TWO USED potentiometers.?

Yes, and $500 each if your burst needs one with the date code.

[paulster]

That's the thing. I'd say that a large proportion of Centralab 500K pots sold these days are going into Burst restorations. When you've got guitars that are worth up to $500,000 in unmolested condition with all original parts then a few hundred dollars to get the right pots with the right date codes suddenly doesn't seem like a bad investment.

Glen actually got a good deal!

And if you think Centralab pots are bad, go and check the prices on M69 pickup rings! Ridiculous, but again a sensible investment in terms of fulfilling the potential value of your guitar.

[Reeltarded]

I disagree. heh

I disagree that there are bursts worth 500k that need a $500 pot. I really disagree with 500k bursts, but that's an whole other thing.

Let's just say that guitar collecting went to hell when... (10 minute dissertation)

And in conclusion, if your burst needs a pot, it's sadly not worth what you wish it was.