So, if changing cap brands...

[Bob Simpson]

and changing from 6PS OD's to Sozo's for example, or Mallory 150's
would you change TS caps, coupling caps, or both?
Primary factor here being "best" tone bang-for-the-buck?

Or would a good mixture be worthwhile?

Bob

[Phil_S]

Sorry, tone is subjective. Those are all good products. You have to try them and see what you like. IMO, they are all overpriced. Try some of the cheap Taiwanese yellow barrels and see if you can tell the difference between those, Mallory, and Sozo's. If you can't, then don't spend the money. I imagine that not everyone can hear it, and not every amp will react the same way.

Oh yeah, I think this could start a flame war. I am on no particular side of this.

[Structo]

Bob if this is concerning the D'Lite amp, most agree that for the true Dumble tone the orange drops rule.

[Andy Le Blanc]

If your gonna re-cap, you might as well do the whole kit-n-kaboodle.
And then after many hours of break in, unless you went as cheap as
possible, you can make the determination if you made the right choice.
I like $$$ oil/foil, but you don't have to. Go for it.

[Blindog]

and changing from 6PS OD's to Sozo's for example, or Mallory 150's
would you change TS caps, coupling caps, or both?
Primary factor here being "best" tone bang-for-the-buck?

Or would a good mixture be worthwhile?

Bob

Hey Bob,

Stick with 6PS OD's for your Blue Monkey. Like Structo said, they seem to be the best for the D style.

Mark

[Structo]

I have heard the Sozo's take a while to break in and sound good.

What would explain that?

Are they a high quality cap? I would assume so from the prices.

[Structo]

Found this on the Sozo site.

Break-in

Simply; The sound gets clear. It at first sounds smeared.

Technically;

Several things happen. The major thing is; during the break in period, the dielectric material (the insulating material) interacts negatively with the signal flow. The dielectric absorbs and releases energy as opposed to passing it through the capacitor. Uncooperatively, this is occurring at chaotic intervals.

This sporadic interaction is changing signal flow through the capacitor. However, the dielectric material changes over time as voltage is applied to the capacitor. The voltage creates heat, and a polarized skin forms on the surface of the dielectric (called skinning).

The dielectric then has a path through which to absorb and release energy, and does so at the correct times due to the formed path. (Like a path through a forest that is traveled over and over). Also over time, as voltage is applied to the conductors (the foil) the metal tempers, creating patterns as well (electricity will take the path of lowest resistance).

There are other reasons like skin effect (With an alternating current, there is a delay in the magnetic field's response to the change in current and the 'old' magnetic field tends to push the current towards the outside of the conductor. As the frequency increases, so does the effect until at very high frequencies the entire current flows in a very narrow skin on the conductor--hence the name).

One other consideration is self inductance (The property of self inductance is a particular form of electromagnetic induction. Self inductance is defined as the induction of a voltage in a current-carrying material when the current in the wire itself is changing). Although this is a non-inductively wound capacitor; meaning, careful attention is made to not produce inductance with the design, there is an inductance due to the alternating voltage.

Every electrical component has a break in period. Some are more noticeable then others. Signal carrying components are the most obvious. It will take approximately 100 hours of operation for the capacitor to function to full performance.

[Les]

Hi Tom, I'm here now, too. Looks like another great forum.

BTW, only 2300 posts?? C'mon, Bud, you're way behind..!!

[FYL]

Found this on the Sozo site.

The usual pseudo-scientific mumbo jumbo used by vendors of snake oil^h^h^h magick components.

Let me address one of the claims :

Fact: in analog MI applications, dielectric absorption is totally negliible for quality film caps (some Mylar, most ceramics, electrolytics, etc. are another story).

You may verify this easily using a quality DVM and a current-limited PS. Get a typical poly* film cap, fully charge it at nominal voltage, say 500V, then discharge it thru a resistor. Measure the residual voltage, you'll get a nice zero reading. If not the cap is defective...

Do the same with a fully formed electrolytic, you'll see that the actual voltage nearly zeroes, then slowly climbs back to up to 10% of the initially applied voltage. That's dielectric absorption at work.

Now "burn in" the caps for 100 hours and do the same basic measurements, the results will be the same.

[Dai H.]

aw come on, if you have mojo then you have to have a ritual.

No fun otherwise.

[Structo]

Hi Tom, I'm here now, too. Looks like another great forum.

BTW, only 2300 posts?? C'mon, Bud, you're way behind..!!

Hi Les,
Great forum!

Some very knowledgeable people here.

[Jana]

FYL,

Interesting logic and science used to refute Sozo's claims. Following that line of inquiry, would it be fair to say that a Chinese tube with the same electrical measurements as a Mullard, Tung-sol, or Amperex Bugle Boy would be sonic equivalents?

Or that a 120vac to 6.3vac filament transformer, which has a turns ratio of 19 to 1 and would have an impedance of ~2.9K ohms when driving an 8 ohm load, would be the sonic equivalent of a Heybour SE output transformer?

Where is the boundary between science and art? Is there a boundary?

[Structo]

Yes, as we know dielectric material plays a very important role in tone.

The rest of the mumbo jumbo I don't know about.

But it's interesting to hear that how much filtering plays a role in tone and also what cap is used there as well.

Some have better ears than others, that's for sure.

Some things you just can't measure.

[paulster]

I don't know why there's so much Sozo hating going on.

Fact is, if they work for you then great. If they don't then don't buy them.

They're the best I've found for Marshall builds and they certainly do sound better with age. I've got no affiliation to them so I've got no reason to support the break-in recommendation or bother breaking them in myself if there was no difference to be heard, but there is.

There are also better caps for other applications in my experience; but they definitely have their place.

Next we'll be told that cap formulation doesn't make any difference to the sound (because they're electrically and mathematically perfect capacitors of course).

[Aurora]

The boundaries between science and art are sometimes vague, but science relies upon proven facts, although sometimes challenged and facts being altered. Art is often about creating impressions, and often provoking in creating new associations - but it is still art, and has little or nothing in common with realities. That's the very nature of art.

In audio engineering there is in general a conscensus that various transistors and tubes have different sonic signatures, based on the specific non linearities. If components like these were perfectly linear, they should sound similar or identical. This is the basis of all modern signal theory and it's associated science.
Within groups of people that are not involved in science or related fields, like in our case engineering, there's an increasing mass of people turning to quasi scientific explanations to explain what they believe in, even if it is what we often call urban myths - or just plain hype. Audio is getting steadily more packed with myths, both in HiFi - and in guitar amps.
I know this have probably already provoked some of you, but that is very far from my intention. My intention is merely to create some scepticism about some of these myths, and to introduce some points related to general electronic engineering. After all, guitar and HiFi amps still have to obey to the same rules of physics as everything else electronical or electrical.

Forming new or fairly new electrolytics seems to be fairly moot from an engineering perspective, although it probably won't hurt anything. I've been into electronics of various forms for well over 30 years, and I'm pretty certain that well over 90% of the cap's I've changed were a result of power spikes, - aka overvoltage. I regularly use equipment that's been sitting on a shelf for sometimes several years, without any problems.
It would be totally unthinkable for me and my collegues to "soft start" a receiver over 5-10 hrs, just because it's been unused for a year.

If we are talking about old stuff that's been collecting dust for many years, and possibly being "old" the last time it was used, - that's another story- where a soft start may at least prevent a major burn out.
We all know 'lytics may dry out, but we also know of fully functioning 'lytics that are 30 yrs or more? The well known "cap job" may certainly be a necessity, or a preventive act, but what if it's still working with the original caps ? Recap'ing as a preventive act is ok , but maybe not necesseary from a technical POW. I have a large tube radio from -63 in almost daily use, and it still has all it's original parts - 'lytics included.
I salvaged it after 15 years on the shelf - "soft started" (!) it over a couple of minutes, fixed a short from a burnt cable - an it's been working since.

The 10 hrs "forming" procedure is quite OK with a single cap (or caps), but I'd be somewhat wary of using this procedure for a complete apparatus - amps included, as it can or will subject the circuit to ridiculous operating points for a very long time, which can be OK, but also disastrous.
For anyone contemplating using NOS 'lytics this is a very good test procedure - and maybe also reforming . Another method for single caps is to use a very large resistor -3-10Mohms - to charge the cap VERY slowly. Personally, I would never use a NOS ellytic for a HiFI amp, but I don't know if this is common in guitar amp circles???

I won't take on the discussion of sonic signatures of this or that brand of cap, polystyrene vs. MKTs, carbon comp vs metal film etc. etc. The well known engineering term for cap's is loss factor, which most agree may have sonic effects, but being of strong belief that at least some of this belong to the myths , I keep on reading these pages.......

Best regards