Need help/advice "voicing" D'Lite 22

[markmalin]

Hi guys.

I finished my D'Lite 22 a month ago but I haven't been completely satisfied with the tone. (I play a Strat, but have a mini-humbucker in the bridge.) Just wondering if you guys can help me get from here to there tonewise. What I'm going for is that horn-like tone like the D'Lite HRM BM style used in this thread: https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.php?t=4414

After reading through many posts on changes, it seemed like the schematic in mdroberts1243's post: https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.php?t=4176 covered a lot of the common changes, so I started mod'ing in phases (moving from input forward). My results so far:

Phase 1: The tone stack presence control. This really opened up the clean sound and brough the tone stack controls to life.
Phase 2: OD section changes. This smoothed out the distortion, but I still don't get that "brassy" sound I want.
Phase 3: PI and power tube section. I'm not sure I notice any difference (should I?). If anything, it almost seems too "compressed" and harsh when clean, and the distortion seems thicker, but more flabby, but that could be my imagination.
Phase 4: The power supply section. I haven't done these yet -- should I?

What's frustrating is, I'm not sure I'm heading in the right direction, or whether all these changes are necessary. The amp has become more "alive" and has a sweeter clean tone. The OD is smoother with lots of sustain, but it still doesn't have that horn-like quality I'm looking for. Is it even possible with this amp, or do I need to build an HRM BM style?

Any thoughts or advice would be really appreciated. This has been a real .earning process, which is both a good thing and a frustrating thing.

Cheers,
Mark.

[greiswig]

IMHO, and based on only one round of amp tweaking, you should start with the power string. That can be one of the more dramatic potential changes to tone and feel.

But (also IMHO), the dropping string values aren't in themselves magic: the voltages present at the tubes are what you're trying to modify by changing the dropping string, so if those voltages are already correct, you don't need to modify the string.

I'm not sure what you mean by brassy, so I'll leave that to someone else.

[markmalin]

But (also IMHO), the dropping string values aren't in themselves magic: the voltages present at the tubes are what you're trying to modify by changing the dropping string, so if those voltages are already correct, you don't need to modify the string.

Thanks for the input, greiswig. What are the voltage values I should be looking for on the dropping string?

I'm not sure what you mean by brassy, so I'll leave that to someone else.

I guess that's a funny term, "brassy"... sorry for the confusion. In some of those youtube clips the guitar tone these guys are getting has the quality of a jazz horn player or almost like a saxiphone. I hear that in their playing, as well as in the mp3 cilps that I've listened to that dogears has posted. Maybe I'm loosing my mind here... but it sounds like brass, or horns.

How's that for vague? <laughs>

[Structo]

This is sort of what I have gleaned from the forum as a whole and particularily what Dogears has mentioned.

PI voltage in the 280v range.

Keep voltages in the 190V-200V range on V1, V2 in the 200v-205V range.

FWIW, I changed the choke resistor to 330R and it dropped my voltages pretty close.

I also changed my PI plate resistors to 120K/ 110K.

[Normster]

That "horn-like" quality is a result of less smoothing of the OD tone and more emphasis on upper mids. Try putting switches in for the OD snubbers and V1 LNFB. When you bypass those two "smoothing" areas, you'll start to hear some of the brassiness you're looking for. Also, if your amp doesn't have a mid shift (switchable .002uF/330pF treble cap) try adding that in as well. The rest of the tone is probably due to the Bluesmaster tone stack and Marshall PI, but the above changes should put you in the ballpark.

[markmalin]

That "horn-like" quality is a result of less smoothing of the OD tone and more emphasis on upper mids. Try putting switches in for the OD snubbers and V1 LNFB. When you bypass those two "smoothing" areas, you'll start to hear some of the brassiness you're looking for. Also, if your amp doesn't have a mid shift (switchable .002uF/330pF treble cap) try adding that in as well. The rest of the tone is probably due to the Bluesmaster tone stack and Marshall PI, but the above changes should put you in the ballpark.

Thanks a bunch, Normster. I really appreciate the explanation, too. I hear the term "snubbers", I'm assuming those are the 270 pf caps from plate to cathode, right?

So do you use one single switch to switch all 3 of these out? I don't have the mid shift switch -- I'll have to try that, too!

Thanks,
Mark.

[markmalin]

This is sort of what I have gleaned from the forum as a whole and particularily what Dogears has mentioned.

PI voltage in the 280v range.

Keep voltages in the 190V-200V range on V1, V2 in the 200v-205V range.

FWIW, I changed the choke resistor to 330R and it dropped my voltages pretty close.

I also changed my PI plate resistors to 120K/ 110K.

Thanks!

Mark.

[brownnote]

...The OD is smoother with lots of sustain, but it still doesn't have that horn-like quality I'm looking for. Is it even possible with this amp, or do I need to build an HRM BM style?
Cheers,
Mark.

...just for reference all of these clips are done with a bone-stock D'Lite22 (except for a couple of VoxyBrown and Lite18 clips in there)...Check it out and see if you hear anything you're looking for:
http://brownnote.net/shared/sounds/CD/

[markmalin]

...just for reference all of these clips are done with a bone-stock D'Lite22 (except for a couple of VoxyBrown and Lite18 clips in there)...Check it out and see if you hear anything you're looking for:
http://brownnote.net/shared/sounds/CD/

Ok... my amp sounds nothing like this. Well, maybe that's an exageration. But this is what I was looking for -- these cleans, and these overdrive tones. My clean tone is OK, but doesn't have that "bite" to it. My OD tone maybe has too much fuzz. Heck, maybe it's just the way I'm setting the controls?

You know the OD tone of "NoCal-final.mp3" and "FullCount-final.mp3"? These sound very Larry Carlton to me. I can't get that sort of tight OD with the jazz-brass quality. Now I'm starting to wonder what I did wrong. Or maybe I just can't do this with a Strat. My other two guitars are Gibson ES jazz boxes.

Do you know, on these two clips what kind of guitars were these guys playing, and how was the amp set up?

In any case, thanks. These clips are both inspiring and frustrating. Inspiring because that's the amp I built but frustrating because mine isn't quite there yet.

Mark.

(Good playing, too!)

[phsyconoodler]

Mark,
My amp with me playing has trouble getting those tones too.But a friend of mine who's a session musician can nail it every time.He plays a tele and a Robben Ford esprit.I can't seem to do what he does so easily,so I am thinking that a lot is in the hands.He manipulates the tones and volume control constantly while playing and it's hard to see exactly what he does.
I decided not to spend too much time tweaking my amp and spend some more time playing.I did however have a chance to A/B my amp with a two rock custom reverb and mine killed it dead for cleans and reverb with a slight nod to the two rock for light overdrive definition.The overdrive on mine was more raunchy,marshall like while the two rock seemed subdued a bit.Smoother.
I guess that's why Dr D taylored these amps to the individual.It definitely requires a 'touch'.We can get close but it's really hard to decide whether it's the amp or the player that's getting those tones we all love so much.I also went back to greenbacks for speakers because the tone was much more satisfying in the mid/high characteristics.They seem to make the amp bloom.I tried a variety of speakers from an EV to a Mojo Greyhound,and a few /eminence(which do sound quite good] but the clear winner was the greenback.Also different guitars brought out remarkably different things.My Deluxe 72 Tele was not as good as with Fender amps and my strat was not great in OD.The best to date was the Esprit and my Minaric with Gibson Classic 57's.Oh,and a buddy's Tele with a Charlie Christian Lollar pickup in the neck.Glorious tones!

[markmalin]

I appreciate your input, Keith. Thanks. I do need to play it more.

I always agree that a lot of tone is in the hands, but the fact that so many different guitarists (the cilps from Brownnote's site as well as the youtube clips from the LA amp show) have that same common tone element, along with the fact that so many were using the same amp, gets me wondering.... I want to understand the balance.

Anyhow, I may try adding a switch to bypass the snubbers and LNFB, then leave it alone for a while and just play it.

Mark.

[brownnote]

...just for reference all of these clips are done with a bone-stock D'Lite22 (except for a couple of VoxyBrown and Lite18 clips in there)...Check it out and see if you hear anything you're looking for:
http://brownnote.net/shared/sounds/CD/

Ok... my amp sounds nothing like this. Well, maybe that's an exageration. But this is what I was looking for -- these cleans, and these overdrive tones. My clean tone is OK, but doesn't have that "bite" to it. My OD tone maybe has too much fuzz. Heck, maybe it's just the way I'm setting the controls?

You know the OD tone of "NoCal-final.mp3" and "FullCount-final.mp3"? These sound very Larry Carlton to me. I can't get that sort of tight OD with the jazz-brass quality. Now I'm starting to wonder what I did wrong. Or maybe I just can't do this with a Strat. My other two guitars are Gibson ES jazz boxes.

Do you know, on these two clips what kind of guitars were these guys playing, and how was the amp set up?

In any case, thanks. These clips are both inspiring and frustrating. Inspiring because that's the amp I built but frustrating because mine isn't quite there yet.

Mark.

(Good playing, too!)

Mark,
I can send you a CD with liner notes on all the guitars and gear used for those clips.

[markmalin]

Mark,
I can send you a CD with liner notes on all the guitars and gear used for those clips.

That would be great