Sozo vs PVC Caps in Express - Clips Attached

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eazilyled
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Sozo vs PVC Caps in Express - Clips Attached

Post by eazilyled »

Out of curiosity, I decided to replace the Sozo caps in my Express clone with a set of PVCs that I bought from RJ.

I recorded a before and after audio clip on my video camera in case any of you were interested in hearing the difference.

In both clips I tried to keep the environment the same, i.e. same amp settings (volume at 1 o clock, bright switch on brightest setting, all other controls at 12 o clock), same guitar (Ibanez Artcore semi hollow with 2 Gibson classic 57 humbuckers and Gibson historic pots), same tubes (Tungsram / Mullard 12AX7, RFT EL34s), using Hotplate set to load, line out into EHX Magnum 44 power amp to lower the volume, same camera position etc.

You will hear in each clip that I played the same thing, i.e.

1) Clean chord on bridge pickup, rolling up the guitar volume to
2) Fully distorted chord on bridge pickup, rolling down the guitar volume to
3) Clean lick on bridge pickup, rolling up the guitar volume to
4) Fully distorted lick on bridge pickup, changing pickup selector to
5) Clean chord on neck pickup, rolling up the guitar volume to
6) Fully distorted chord on neck pickup, rolling down the guitar volume to
7) Clean lick on neck pickup, rolling up the guitar volume to
8 ) Fully distorted lick on neck pickup

One very minor complaint I had about the Sozos were that they seemed a tiny bit muffled and compressed sounding at times, which I couldn't seem to dial out. The PVCs sounded slightly brighter and more open with none of that compressed feeling.

At this point I should point out a couple of things:
1) When I had the Sozos in, the presence cap was actually a Mallory 150.
2) The Sozos didn't get the full 100 hours break in time. I estimate that I had played the amp for approx 30 hours, so maybe the lack of break in contributed to what I didn't like about them. I admit that perhaps I should have been more patient, but the tinkerer in me got the better of me!

The verdict for me was that I preferred the PVCs, certainly with my main humbucker equipped guitar as heard in the clips. That was just as well, as the Sozos were so well installed in the turrets that it was a real PITA to get them out, and let's just say that a couple of them didn't make it out alive :lol:

Having said that, I would happily use Sozos again, particularly if I was going for a darker sound.

I was a little bit unsure of what to expect in this experiment, even to the point of perhaps expecting that there would no noticeable difference between the caps. But if you listen to two equivalent sections of the clip one after the other you will notice that the Sozos are darker and the PVCs are brighter.

Just for fun, I have also attached a frequency analysis plot of each clip that was produced using Audacity. The analysis was for a portion of the 'fully distorted chord on bridge pickup' section of each clip (after the last note of the chord was plucked).

I noticed that there was a clear dip in the amplitude of frequencies in the large area of purple on the left of each plot. This dip happens at a higher frequency for the PVC caps (just after 4000Hz) compared to the Sozos (just before 3000Hz).
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martin manning
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Re: Sozo vs PVC Caps in Express - Clips Attached

Post by martin manning »

Nice work! Even through my laptop's speakers I can hear more clarity in the PVC's, more so though desktop monitors. Your plots are some of the only "hard evidence" I've seen that different caps have different sound.
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Colossal
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Re: Sozo vs PVC Caps in Express - Clips Attached

Post by Colossal »

Great job on quantifying the difference! That's really cool to see the frequency plots. I use Sozos for Marshall builds but have not tried them in an Express circuit yet. Yes, they do sound markedly different after some time. I recently heard an 50W Plexi I built for a fellow about 2 years ago and it is quite dark sounding now; very much mellowed from the more aggressive edge it had when caps and transformers were new.
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eazilyled
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Re: Sozo vs PVC Caps in Express - Clips Attached

Post by eazilyled »

Thanks guys.

I suppose an interesting avenue of investigation would be to do clips / plots of Sozos before / after break-in, just to see exactly how things change.

It will also be interesting to see if the PVCs change over time.
katopan
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Re: Sozo vs PVC Caps in Express - Clips Attached

Post by katopan »

On the Sozo site they have a CRO shot of before and after breakin.
http://www.sozoamplification.com/break_in.html
Obviously after is smoother and it's a sinewave test of some sort. Anyone know or want to have a guess as to what test these waveform shots are actually based on? What are they actually showing?

The difference in you frequency spectrum is interesting. Thanks for posting.
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jelle
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Re: Sozo vs PVC Caps in Express - Clips Attached

Post by jelle »

katopan wrote:On the Sozo site they have a CRO shot of before and after breakin.
http://www.sozoamplification.com/break_in.html
Obviously after is smoother and it's a sinewave test of some sort. Anyone know or want to have a guess as to what test these waveform shots are actually based on? What are they actually showing?

The difference in you frequency spectrum is interesting. Thanks for posting.
Katopan, I do not know how the test was conducted but it appears that when a signal is put through the cap, New sozo caps distort the sinewave/introduce distortion. I have to say that presenting data without showing the experimental conditions is not something I am used to in the scientific environment I work in. Unless someone asks sozo, the question is how relevant the test conditions are to our tube amp conditions.


And....wow, I have never seen this kind of distortion with the caps that I'm using, and I scope my amps from A to Z. Does anyone here have similar distortion patterns with new caps?

Also, I wonder how different the m150 caps are, both new and broken in, compared to the sozo caps.
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Re: Sozo vs PVC Caps in Express - Clips Attached

Post by katopan »

That's why I asked. Those waveforms that are flipantly displayed as proof of break in show something I've never seen in an amp with new caps, old caps, or cheap brown $0.55 caps. I can only dream you'd get a waveform looking like that from either inductive load ringing, rectifier or other diode conduction point, or something else not really relevant to the voltage amp signal path through a guitar amp. Now I'm not disputing people hearing a different pre or post break in, but I'd just love to know what those two pics are actually representing or if they just look good.
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Re: Sozo vs PVC Caps in Express - Clips Attached

Post by rooster »

I kinda agree with your results, how you feel the PVCs are brighter vs. the Sozos. It's a strange thing trying to express what you hear with caps but it's there. I actually prefer the Sozo Blues because they are brighter than the other two versions (of Sozos). Go figure.

Oh, and when I say 'brighter', in both cases, the Blues or the PVCs, the top end is not harsh. That's what I like in a cap, bright and not harsh.

Anyway, testing gear is a hard job. Being honest with the process is pretty tough unless you have a recorded track that you reamp through the amp. Eh, but I get what you did, thanks.
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Cliff Schecht
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Re: Sozo vs PVC Caps in Express - Clips Attached

Post by Cliff Schecht »

I think one of the big problems with these FFT's are there are too many variables involved. The quality of the equipment wasn't there (no offense, that stuff is $$$!) and the consistency of the two clips isn't there. Like mentioned above unless you play the same test signal through both amps and record the results in a way that doesn't depend on so many variables then you won't have very meaningful results to look.

With that said, there is a dramatic difference in those plots that is hard to ignore. I don't buy into the boutique cap thing and TBH would be pretty pissed if I spent money on signal caps only to have to wait 100+ hours for the "magic" to happen. This to me is a part that changes specs dramatically over a short period of time and in any other engineering situation would be considered a crappy part!
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jelle
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Re: Sozo vs PVC Caps in Express - Clips Attached

Post by jelle »

Cliff Schecht wrote:This to me is a part that changes specs dramatically over a short period of time and in any other engineering situation would be considered a crappy part!
+1!

That is why I like Lord Valve/NBS electronics.... proper burn in resulting in stable tubes. Now as for caps.... I do not notice a big difference with 6PS caps after burn in, nor do I measure it like the sozo website shows.

Does anyone here care to replicate the sozo distorted sine wave? :D
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Re: Sozo vs PVC Caps in Express - Clips Attached

Post by Reeltarded »

+2 then, with all the caveats from both ends.

In the recording end of things, it all matters, and what I hear from one cap to another is the difference between overt clarity, or a little hair. The overt clarity might serve me in a huge guitar mix, but I might be better with the darkness helping to settle in with everything else under a bus compressor to supply what we know as "the glue".

I generally prefer the overt clarity, and I play angularly, with my finger pads a little longer on the mutes to create the illusion of the darker sound...

I think I need to experiment with some caps more now than I thought I did yesterday!
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eazilyled
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Re: Sozo vs PVC Caps in Express - Clips Attached

Post by eazilyled »

Thanks for the comments guys.

Yes, I totally agree that for consistency it would have been better to have used the same reamped input signal for both clips, and to have used studio grade gear instead of a video camera.

It'd be great to have a standard guitar signal test track that we could use for demoing our builds or doing a/b tests. It would have to be a tasty player covering a range of sounds, something like a direct recording from GK's 59 Les Paul - that'd do it! :D

But for what it's worth, I do feel that the clips / plots matched the differences between the caps that I perceived in person.

rooster, I like your description 'bright and not harsh'. That's definitely a good description of the PVCs.
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Colossal
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Re: Sozo vs PVC Caps in Express - Clips Attached

Post by Colossal »

Reeltarded wrote:I generally prefer the overt clarity, and I play angularly, with my finger pads a little longer on the mutes to create the illusion of the darker sound...
I think technique has a lot to do with tone. If you listen to guys like Allan Holdsworth, Van Halen, et al they can play a Crate amp and still sound like themselves.
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Re: Sozo vs PVC Caps in Express - Clips Attached

Post by M Fowler »

Colossal wrote:
Reeltarded wrote:I generally prefer the overt clarity, and I play angularly, with my finger pads a little longer on the mutes to create the illusion of the darker sound...
I think technique has a lot to do with tone. If you listen to guys like Allan Holdsworth, Van Halen, et al they can play a Crate amp and still sound like themselves.
Yeah those guys all heard me play once at La Costa College and they can't get my tone out of their heads, poor bastards. :lol:
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Re: Sozo vs PVC Caps in Express - Clips Attached

Post by Reeltarded »

EVH just signed a deal with Bugera to clone the Fender version of his Peavey hotrodded Marshall that Soldano sued Line6 over. The new Hiwatt amp will be called the 5150. Wth, it's like George Foreman Sr. names all Ed's amps or something.

This is the internet, and rumors have to be born somewhere. Please tell everyone you see.
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