Strat/Dumble. Always a problem for me until today!

[ER]

Larry C's Valley Arts guitars all had EMG's.

Lowell George used a Tele bridge pickup in his strats. I want to try some of the cheap GFS brass bottom strat pickups in the bridge position.

Tom Verlaine and Steve Kimock (and SRV too!) all had strats with Danelectro pickups (and fat strings with a wound G, Verlaine and Vaughn tuned down a bit). Lindley and Warren Zevon liked these pickups as well in the daneletros and silvertones (with a flanger).

Ry Cooder used all kinds of funky stuff in his strats, national lap steel pickups, etc.

Not all strats are created equal, or remain as they were created.

I play a 70's hardtail with stock pickups for neck and middle pickup in the bridge, and a 50's white lap steel in the middle, they all measure a paltry 5.5k across the board.

I think the Hot "texas style" overwinds are not the way to go. I don't even know where they came up with that "texas style" thing, maybe trying to get a strat to sound like ZZ top? I think all of Stevie's pickups were plain old fullerton california style...

Happy with early value 100 watt clean tones, my OD is far off the reservation (hiwatt HRM with dual mega boost) but I like it with the strat.

If you want fat tones, fat strings help a lot too .

-Erik

[Mac Daddy]

What would be very interesting is to have MacDaddy do a clip with #183 and a Strat.

Here's an old chip , second one is 183 ( 1st one is a TR TS1 w/mods , the Macsmoothie mod ) or east coast mod
both playing thru a CS one off 58 hard tail strat


http://youtu.be/hHn3d2p9hVk

[tag101]

IMO this is just a matter of personal taste. Just look at my list with many players of 2nd and 3rd generation ODS amps with a "pre-classic" tone stack that IMO is more similar to a "skyline" tone stack than to a "classic" tone stack. My personal taste – just as an example - is of a kind that whenever I liked an original Dumble ODS amp very much, I always liked it in combination with all my guitars. I never met an original ODS that I only liked in combination with a Les Paul or ES335 and that I disliked with a Strat. But of course: this is just my individual personal taste.

All the best, Tony!

Max

Hey Max,
I hope all is well!

Its all a matter of personal taste of course. Its just a lot of people find Strats to not work as well as most other guitars with Dumbles. Of course you can put all kinds of boxes and effects in front to mask it, or use EMGs with mid boosts like carlton, or many other tone "enhancers" to make them sound better, but these things are not needed with most other guitars. Leave all the boxes and devices out of it, and when you plug a Strat straight in, its just a much thinner, buzzier tone than you get with other guitars. this is not the case with many other amps. For instance, I played an Orange rockerverb today with many different guitars, including a Strat. ALL guitars sounded great. Now of course some people may like the thinner, buzzier tone that a Strat gives when plugged straight into many Dumbles and overdriven, but I am not one of them. It seems a stronger pup is all that is required, because my $150 el cheapo Strat with really hot pups sounds GREAT through the Dumble with overdrive. Of course try and get good cleans out of that guitar and its mud city.

[tag101]

What would be very interesting is to have MacDaddy do a clip with #183 and a Strat.

Here's an old chip , second one is 183 ( 1st one is a TR TS1 w/mods , the Macsmoothie mod ) or east coast mod
both playing thru a CS one off 58 hard tail strat


http://youtu.be/hHn3d2p9hVk

That Two Rock sounds great. If the volumes were similar it would be almost impossible to tell one from the other. That mod really helped that amp. Originally that thing was ear shredding with all that treble.

[CHIP]

Thanks Mac D,
I liked the second part of clip (Dumble). Nothing wrong with that Strat tone.

[talbany]

Max

talbany wrote:
To my knowledge most of the players on that list don't use (or have not really been known) to use a Strat in the overdrive channel through an ODS style amp with a Skyliner tone stack

Tony, yes, might be from what we know. But many of these players used 1st, 2nd, and 3rd generation amps with a "pre-classic" tone stack like this one https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.php?t=12870. And IMO one could argue that – with the exception of the mid switch - the "pre-classic" tone stack of these amps is more similar to a "skyline" tone stack than to a "classic" tone stack.

After I wrote my last post/Review/opinion I was thinking how I preferred my 2nd Gen. 100w version with my Strat guitars and remembered how those stacks resembled the later Skyliners ie 250k mid pot .01 mid cap and James config on the Bass and wondered myself why such a similar stack could sound different..I am not exactly sure why!!..those amps do have a completely different OD trigger set up..later on on the classics the OD trigger was changed but so was the tone stack?...Right?

Quote:
Larry's rig was so full of outboard gear when he was using his Valley Arts Strat I don't really consider that a fair comparison..

I referred to his use of a 60ies strat in combination with his later ODS amps. Obviously he liked this combination (but Gil e.g. disliked it AFAIR).

I thought his later ODS was a Ripper (Fender-Marshall tone stack) and he hardly ever used his OD in that amp..Set me straight if I am unclear here

Besides that was a low plate classic..

IMO the tone of his "classic" amps remind me a bit more of "high plate classic" amps. But this is IMO speculating anyway. And as you know, there are at least two ODS amps with a "high plate classic" circuit (#0123 and its sister amp) that as far as we know have been custom built by Alexander Dumble especially for a strat player.

Sure and 123 has a .047 mid cap and a 103k mid pot and is more of a Skyliner/Classic hybrid..

IMO The Classic stack seems to be a bit more Strat friendly!!

IMO this is just a matter of personal taste. Just look at my list with many players of 2nd and 3rd generation ODS amps with a "pre-classic" tone stack that IMO is more similar to a "skyline" tone stack than to a "classic" tone stack. My personal taste – just as an example - is of a kind that whenever I liked an original Dumble ODS amp very much, I always liked it in combination with all my guitars. I never met an original ODS that I only liked in combination with a Les Paul or ES335 and that I disliked with a Strat. But of course: this is just my individual personal taste.

All the best, Tony!

Max..don't get me wrong!!..It's not that I dislike the tone of the later Skyliner/100k OD trigger..I was trying to point out why some people hear might not like it (perhaps a classic stack might work better for them like some of those on the list you posted)..For me I don't dislike it I just prefer my 2nd gen OD tone over the later..That is just me and am absolutely sure others would disagree..Perhaps they have not found the right guitar to go with that amp like tag has just discovered..

This is what really confuses me. Why does this seem to be the case? What is it that makes a tele bridge pup sound so great through a dumble, and a Strat bridge so weak and thin? Are tele Bridge pups basically hotter than Strats bridges?

I (and some others here )consider a Tele to be a bridge between a Strat and a Les Paul and have had this discussion with Lindy Fralin about why Tele bridges sound so different than that of a Strat..The answer was many things..Design (profile) pickup bottom plates, Gauss, wire size, bridge plates,position on guitar and the usual, DC resistance,magnet strength,Saddles..etc..Lindy said think of a Tele bridge as a sort of in between a Strat style and a P-90 (old style)

BTW...I understand you guy's wanting to hear clips of Strats through some Dumbles or D-clones..BUT IMO.. a home made recording only tells us part of the story..

All The very Best!!

Tony

[Max]

After I wrote my last post/Review/opinion I was thinking how I preferred my 2nd Gen. 100w version with my Strat guitars and remembered how those stacks resembled the later Skyliners ie 250k mid pot .01 mid cap and James config on the Bass and wondered myself why such a similar stack could sound different..I am not exactly sure why!!..those amps do have a completely different OD trigger set up..later on on the classics the OD trigger was changed but so was the tone stack?...Right?

Yes, that's why I personally think that isolating certain components like tone stack, OD circuit, power supply etc. as being responsible for a certain kind of tone and response of a Dumble ODS might be too much simplification.

I thought his later ODS was a Ripper (Fender-Marshall tone stack) and he hardly ever used his OD in that amp..Set me straight if I am unclear here.

AFAIK he played a skyline HRM ODS for a long time before he got a Ripper and AFAIK he used the OD circuit of the sykyline HRM amp.

123 has a .047 mid cap and a 103k mid pot and is more of a Skyliner/Classic hybrid..

Why do you think it's a "hybrid"? The schematic of #0123 posted here some time ago AFAIR showns in my opinion a rather usual 4th generation "high-plate classic" ODS with a "standard" OD circuit.

Max..don't get me wrong!!..It's not that I dislike the tone of the later Skyliner/100k OD trigger..

To avoid misunderstandings:

AFAIK - and according to your 124 sykline layout and your low plate classic layout in the files section - the 220k - 100k trigger entrance is the typical entrance configuration of a high plate and low plate "classic" ODS and and of a high plate skyline ODS because both have what I call the "standard" OD circuit. So this 220k / 100k trigger entrance is in most of the high plate and low plate "classic" ODS amps used by the players in my list.

BTW:

IMO the different dynamic and transient response of the later ODS amps with a precision power supply might be one of the reasons why some people obviously have problems when combining a usual stock Strat with one of the later skyline ODS amps. And IMO it might be rewarding to look for stock Stratocasters - and IMO they exist - with a fat sound in all registers even in the upper ones (12th fret+). The "plinky-plinky" kind of Strats I don't like anway. Perhaps that's the reason why I don't have this problem when playing with one of my Strats thru a skyline ODS.

Have a great time!

Max

[LeftyStrat]

Honestly, I think it comes down to what you love as a Strat player. There are a lot of strat players that don't really do it for me, simply because they make a strat sound like a no-name guitar, and that includes Ford and Carlton.

Hendrix, Gallagher, and Gilmour play Strats, others just turn them into nondescript humbucker guitars.

Make the neck pickup sound good, and all the other pickups will fall into place.

Probably an unpopular opinion, but I'm drinking cheap beer and don't give a shit.

[LeftyStrat]

For example, this guy knows a Strat:

http://www.germinoamps.com/audio/tribute.mp3

[Max]

Honestly, I think it comes down to what you love as a Strat player. There are a lot of strat players that don't really do it for me, simply because they make a strat sound like a no-name guitar, and that includes Ford and Carlton.

Hendrix, Gallagher, and Gilmour play Strats, others just turn them into nondescript humbucker guitars.

IMO many players like the ergonomics and feel of strat-style guitars and feel comfortable playing them but prefer a kind of tone usually associated with humbuckers or P90 etc.

IMO these two clips are examples for a clean and overdriven Strat tone thru a Dumble amp that according to my personal taste is still a recognizable Strat tone but not what I would call "thin" – at least not according to my personal taste.

https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... 483#136483
https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... 484#136484

IMO many original Dumble ODS amps I had the opportunity to play are great for Hendrix, Gallagher and Gilmour style stuff, too.

Cheers,

Max

[talbany]

AFAIK he played a skyline HRM ODS for a long time before he got a Ripper and AFAIK he used the OD circuit of the sykyline HRM amp.

IMO I don't know why someone would have a tone issue with the HRM since you can control it via the HRM stack!

Why do you think it's a "hybrid"? The schematic of #0123 posted here some time ago AFAIR showns in my opinion a rather usual 4th generation "high-plate classic" ODS with a "standard" OD circuit.

150k Slope in 123 threw me

To avoid misunderstandings:

AFAIK - and according to your 124 sykline layout and your low plate classic layout in the files section - the 220k - 100k trigger entrance is the typical entrance configuration of a high plate and low plate "classic" ODS and and of a high plate skyline ODS because both have what I call the "standard" OD circuit. So this 220k / 100k trigger entrance is in most of the high plate and low plate "classic" ODS amps used by the players in my list.

Yes Max I know but I wasn't really addressing the plate resistors.. My point was mainly directed at the different tone stacks used between the CLASSIC and SKYLINER!...Since the tone stack is part of the OD circuit (in OD) the classic stack and Skyliner Stack will sound different (with the same standart OD trigger)..That was my point!! ...We can discuss the earlier 3 resistor OD entrance on the 2nd/3rd gen amps when Tag gets one of those..

IMO the different dynamic and transient response of the later ODS amps with a precision power supply might be one of the reasons why some people obviously have problems when combining a usual stock Strat with one of the later skyline ODS amps.

Why on earth would you think this
I think this is one of the reasons why he might have moved to the more versitile HRM circuit myself..Tired of players bitchin about there Strats..

So since myself

The Classic stack (ie .047 mid cap 100k slope 100k mid pot) is a bit more Strat friendly (in OD)

..and HAD (123) both prefer the 100k mid pot and .047 mid cap for a Strat what else does anyone need to know..

Your the Greatest!!

Tony

[Max]

what else does anyone need to know..

Perhaps not for "anyone", but perhaps for some here it might be interesting that:

- AFAIK you'll find all original 150K slope resistors in ODS amps with a "classic" tone stack, too.

- AFAIK the power supply influences the attack time and transient response. And AFAIK the starting (and sometimes finishing) transients of a sound are most important for the perceived timbre of an instrument (and of course all other sounds, too) and timbre recognition in general.

"Starting transients

A very important part of time are the starting transients: the short-lived sounds at the start of a note. These often contain substantial components that are not harmonics of the note. Broad band noise may be present, and the fundamental may be relatively slow to start. Without the starting (and sometimes finishing) transients, it is very difficult to recognise different musical instruments."

source: http://www.animations.physics.unsw.edu. ... e.htm#sub3

So if some sound triggers the "Strat" or the "Les Paul" perception pattern, AFAIK our brain decides for a large part already in the very first fractions of a second while perceiving the initial attack of some tone. The reason for this structure of our timbre recognition system is AFAIK a result of the evolution of our spezies: AFAIK it was of some advantage in regard to the surviving of our species to recognize as fast as possible if the noise behind are the feet of some clansman or the paws of a sabre-tooth tiger on the hunt.

Your the Greatest!!

Tony, thank you for the flowers. But who's "the Greatest" is in my personal opinion one of the most boring und uninteresting topics I can think of.

All the best,

Max

[talbany]

Tony, thank you for the flowers. But who's "the Greatest" is in my personal opinion one of the most boring und uninteresting topics I can think of.

Max

It's not as boring as whether or not Tag found the perfect Strat for his Quinn.. But this is just my personal opinion..

Tony

[tag101]

Tony, thank you for the flowers. But who's "the Greatest" is in my personal opinion one of the most boring und uninteresting topics I can think of.

Max

It's not as boring as whether or not Tag found the perfect Strat for his Quinn.. But this is just my personal opinion..

Tony

Listening to you guys go back and forth has to be right at the top of the list as well.

[ayan]

Listening to you guys go back and forth has to be right at the top of the list as well.

Could it be you're a wee bit jealous because Tony didn't get you any flowers? And that's even though he knows that "Tag knows tone"!

Happy Holidays, everyone!

G.