Giving away info you are entrusted to keep.

[RJ Guitars]

It was that way initially on the Rocket amp... but I found that one way to unlock secrets is to publish what you know at the moment. Once we did that group build and had our version close, all of a sudden the flood gates opened up and we had lots off new details... it was hard to tell what the motive was since we had publicly asked for help in the early stages and some critical pieces were not given??? But,.at any rate the Rocket soon became extremely well documented and sure enough Ceria Tone had a kit on the market in a matter of weeks. Did we do the right thing??? I am a business competitor with them and I hold NO personal pain from there initiative.

The SSS was sorta the same story over on the Dumble pages, but most of that documentation is privately kept and protected...

I made great connections on both efforts and learned a ton... I really think the best way to collect amp secrets is to build lots of amps and help other people build lots of amps. Dying with lots of Cool ideas in your head and a few less friends than you coulda had wouldn't really be the legacy I want to leave behind.

Edit - stupid smart phone left off a key word!

[rp]

Share it all, those keeping it to themselves will face damnation in the afterlife, glopped in epoxy for all eternity.

[cbass]

I've got a secret

[rdjones]

Share it all, those keeping it to themselves will face damnation in the afterlife, glopped in epoxy for all eternity.

[talbany]

It was that way initially on the Rocket amp... but I found that one way to unlock secrets is to publish what you know at the moment. Once we did that group build and had our version close, all of a sudden the flood gates opened up and we had lots off new details... it was hard to tell what the motive was since we had publicly asked for help in the early stages and some critical pieces were not given??? But,.at any rate the Rocket soon became extremely well documented and sure enough Ceria Tone had a kit on the market in a matter of weeks. Did we do the right thing??? I am a business competitor with them and I hold NO personal pain from there initiative.

The SSS was sorta the same story over on the Dumble pages, but most of that documentation is privately kept and protected...

I made great connections on both efforts and learned a ton... I really think the best way to collect amp secrets is to build lots of amps and help other people build lots of amps. Dying with lots of Cool ideas in your head and a few less friends than you coulda had wouldn't really be the legacy I want to leave behind.

Edit - stupid smart phone left off a key word!

Pretty much the same thing happend over at the D-side..After publishing the layouts on 183 and the Ford amp it only took weeks before Ceriatone had kit for those amps...Right after that so many in the know held back much of that info in anything SSS related..It's a real shame too since like I said many in the know really do want to share but in direct competition with Ceriatone made it real tough for them to post the good stuff...I think though if C-tone would have contributed more to this community and share things there would be a different perspective but since they took and never gave anything, the doors shut tight on the SSS..Some might have a different opinion on this but this is what I believe happend..To be honest the Dumble side of the forum has since gone pretty much silent with info and pics of real Dumble amp designs..Now it's mostly people wanting help with their amps..And that OK...But it's not really the same IMO!!

Much of the Dumble myths (including the SSS) have been cracked anyway but would be nice to see more info emerge about other amps..

Tony

[Zippy]

I've got a secret

Did you break another finger?

[eniam rognab]

i secrete things too

[LeftyStrat]

Yeah, it's a shame that that happened. I was going to mention the concept of Tragedy of The Commons, then realized that the resource in this case is information, which is not depletable.

However, I suppose individuals acting in their own self-interest can still cause detriment to a community based on sharing, if they continually take and profit from the work of others without giving back.

I suppose there's not a lot left to uncover in Dumbleland. Maybe the Ultraphonix and the Ripper?

Oh, and Ceriatone's version of the SSS.

[talbany]

Oh, and Ceriatone's version of the SSS.

I know the C-tone SSS and have worked on a few and they are OK..I can honestly tell you that the info here on 002 is a much better amp and the one I would choose any day of the week!!!!!
Mainly due to CF driver and the reverb mixer.. The driver actually runs the amp closer to AB2..Driving the output section into grid current is a totally different animal in tone and feel and power..IMO gotta have it to complete the SSS vibe....YMMV!!

Tony

[LeftyStrat]

Oh, and Ceriatone's version of the SSS.

I know the C-tone SSS and have worked on a few and they are OK..I can honestly tell you that the info here on 002 is a much better amp and the one I would choose any day of the week!!!!!
Mainly due to CF driver and the reverb mixer.. The driver actually runs the amp closer to AB2..Driving the output section into grid current is a totally different animal in tone and feel and power..IMO gotta have it to complete the SSS vibe....YMMV!!

Tony

Thanks for the info Tony. I always thought the CF driver was an important part of the magic. I'll have to study the reverb mixer more.

[Bob S]

The wealth of knowledge & information available, for anyone willing to use the search function & invest the time, is massive here.
All freely given. Staggering - and for that I am grateful to all concerned.
The unavailable stuff doesn't concern me in the least. Like cb said - figure it out.

[LeftyStrat]

It was that way initially on the Rocket amp... but I found that one way to unlock secrets is to publish what you know at the moment. Once we did that group build and had our version close, all of a sudden the flood gates opened up and we had lots off new details... it was hard to tell what the motive was since we had publicly asked for help in the early stages and some critical pieces were not given??? But,.at any rate the Rocket soon became extremely well documented and sure enough Ceria Tone had a kit on the market in a matter of weeks. Did we do the right thing??? I am a business competitor with them and I hold NO personal pain from there initiative.

The SSS was sorta the same story over on the Dumble pages, but most of that documentation is privately kept and protected...

I made great connections on both efforts and learned a ton... I really think the best way to collect amp secrets is to build lots of amps and help other people build lots of amps. Dying with lots of Cool ideas in your head and a few less friends than you coulda had wouldn't really be the legacy I want to leave behind.

Edit - stupid smart phone left off a key word!

+ a million

This is truly the part I love about TAG. A trickle of information shared, a little more, and suddenly the flood gates opening.

Then the second stage where the permutations come into play. Probably happened more with the Rocket than any other circuit. This is where TAG becomes more than a 'cloners' board, and more of a creative endeavor in it's own right.

I'll never in a lifetime have a Kenny or Alexander tweak an amp for me. Next best thing is the collective intelligence of TAG.

[RJ Guitars]

One thing interesting to note is that neither Ken Fischer nor Howard Dumble wanted people to copy their amps and they made quite an effort to prevent that from happening... I suspect it adds to the legendary status of a builder if he can add some mystique as to what is under the hood of his hotrod?

Here is a quote from Derek Ferwerda - one of the many that were close to Ken and often served as the amp tester for Ken...

From Derek:... If you want to build a Trainwreck. Please don’t. Please build your own amp. You have a right to your own amp and a responsibility to love it and nurture it in the manner that Ken did. Yours might even be better!!! Ken would have told you that himself. I heard him say that over and over again. The difference is, I was on his end of the phone after these calls, when he said; “why don’t they believe me”. It made him sad. His only wish was to grow the amp community by serving it as a community. He respected everybody up front and he was always willing to help people who knew far less than him which just about covered the planet. If he were alive today, I swear on my life that he would have helped you. I have both witnessed and heard him help everyone who asked. Even those that carved his heart out. He was that surrendered to tone and pure sound. The reason that Kenny had no competition is because he was not competitive. He loved tone and it ended their. If any of you feel the same way, this will ring in your hearts.Derek

Dumble's technique was a little less subtle - like smearing gobs of black goo all over everything so you couldn't see enough to duplicate it.

I think both of them also employed the additional technique of "mis-information"... as a few of our own here at TAG have done occasionally. This is a bit cruel and desperate... nobody is really better for it in any aspect.

As far as protecting info so a builder can make a living much less get rich... haven't heard of too many fortune 500 success stories yet. If you are a decent builder you are probably building as fast as you can go and time is often harder to come by than secret amp info. If you are in this craft you better be in it for the love and intellectual stimulation...

I do have a few secrets and I am a practicing capitalist so I'll admit I am holding a few secrets of my own... not new stuff necessarily but stuff that hasn't been tried in the way I intend to use it or hasn't been published recently enough to be on most peoples radar screens. I really don't have time to follow up on all the bright ideas I have now... if someone were to provide me the holy grail schematic and box of parts my greatest fear is that I wouldn't have time to get it done either before someone else posted it or I got old and forgot I had it...

[Teleguy61]

It really comes down to money. There's talk about the secrets of the commercial builders needing to be secret to protect their livelihoods--uh, funny thing is that the people of this said inner circle--aren't they mostly people who build clones for money...

"Money makes people act funny..." HE Rogers (it's doubtful you know him). I might add that so does ego, anger, selfishness, and any number of human character issues... many of which come into play in the holding and disclosing of secrets here on the TAG forum. Not sharing can also be good thing... depends on the reason. I routinely ask people not to share bits and pieces of info because it's not compete or accurate and in the wrong context it might cause confusion and harm.

Then there is that element of capitalism... the gathering and holding of intellectual property can be rather rigorous work and each individual has to decide for themselves whether they want to share what they know for love, money, barter, or not at all. It's a public forum and personal behavior is an unccontrolled variable.

I will suggest that if you are openly helpful when is possible to contribute, be honorable in your off screen sharing and distribution, then all you could ever possibly use in amp secrets will be given to you.... FWIW - never offer to sell anything or ask for any technical info until you've made a few posts and learned how to use the search function.

Personally, I find that very little tube amp technology is very secret and if it is the holder off that info spends all their energy looking over their shoulder and cannot be looking ahead to explore new ideas.

This is right on the money RJ.
We have to remember that Intellectual Property is actual Property--someone owns it.
This is often forgotten because it is not tangible, and people find it difficult to assign a value to it in their minds, unlike a Les Paul or a Strat that can be easily valued.
I think it's wonderful when knowledgeable people chose to share information, but I do not blame them if they don't.
They worked for it, they have no obligation to share it with me or anyone.
It's a gift when they do, and I am grateful.
Thank you all, sharers.

[LeftyStrat]

Sorry, but no circuit is patentable.