1967 Gibson GA5-T Amp Issues

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martin manning
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Re: 1967 Gibson GA5-T Amp Issues

Post by martin manning »

texstrat wrote:Ok, so DC voltage is what I want to measure across V3 pin 7, V2 pin 9 and after the resistor at the terminal strip?
Yes, my mistake on the schematic. One of the red leads from the TF102 is connected to pin 1 on V3.
Correct, from those points to ground. If you can clip your meter's black lead to a ground point and then probe with the red, one-handed, that's best. A good location to clip to for ground is pin 2 of V3, which is used as a common ground point. Notice it has all the grounds from the controls and the multi-cap's black (common) lead tied to it, as well as the resistor from the output tube's cathode (pin 3).

I think you have the striped lead from the transformer shown incorrectly too, it should go to V3 pin 2 (ground) shouldn't it?
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Re: 1967 Gibson GA5-T Amp Issues

Post by texstrat »

Ok, here are the results:

V3 pin 7 283V
V2 pin 9 258V
Terminal strip after resistor 51V

Multi color wire is correct, what I failed to add was the two green wires from TF102 going to pin 3 and 4 on V3.

So, pin 7 is reading high, pin 9 is close and the terminal strip is real low. Could the issue with the voltage at the terminal strip have something to do with the .033uf cap in the tremolo circuit?

Also, are all the values in the voltage chart measured in DC?
Last edited by texstrat on Sun Jan 09, 2011 10:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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martin manning
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Re: 1967 Gibson GA5-T Amp Issues

Post by martin manning »

The multi-color wire has to go straight to ground. Looks like it is on pin 2 V3 in your "V4 and V3" photo.

Probably the 9% over-voltage on pin 7 V3 can be explained by the fact that typical line voltage is higher now than it was in 1967. What is your power transformer primary voltage, BTW?

Does the amp play now? Something is drawing a lot of current to drop that last B+ voltage that much. Getting the rest of the voltages should reveal where it is.
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Re: 1967 Gibson GA5-T Amp Issues

Post by texstrat »

The multi-color wire does go straight to ground on pin 2 V3 as does the black lead from the multi-cap.

The amp does play, without the tremolo, of course, but I do not have anything to reference it to, so as far as I can tell it is functioning.

Measure the power transformer at V3 pins 1 and 6 VAC?

I will get the all the values for the voltage chart.
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martin manning
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Re: 1967 Gibson GA5-T Amp Issues

Post by martin manning »

That last B+ voltage should be from the multi-cap's green wire to ground. Is that what you measured at 51V?

Yes, the voltages in the table are DC. For the line voltage you want the VAC on the PT primary (black) wires. Same as sticking your meter probes in the wall socket.
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Phil_S
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Re: 1967 Gibson GA5-T Amp Issues

Post by Phil_S »

Voltages should tend to run high compared to the schematic. When this amp was built, line voltage was 110-117. It is now generally 117-129. You can figure 5-10% over is on spec.

Martin, you're doing great! I'm going to sit on the sideline for a while and watch :D
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Re: 1967 Gibson GA5-T Amp Issues

Post by texstrat »

Green lead from multi-cap to terminal strip measured 150V.

The black leads coming off of TF-102 are going to the back of the power switch measured 0.3VAC and long terminal strip near the tremolo switch 123VAC.

Here are the voltage values for each tube.

V1
Pin 1 - 114VDC
Pin 2 - 0
Pin 3 - 1.12VDC
Pin 6 - 78VDC
Pin 7 - 54mVDC
Pin 8 - 0.5VDC

V2
Pin 2 - 0
Pin 3 - 8.0VDC
Pin 7 - 263VDC
Pin 9 - 260VDC

V3
Pin 1 - 261VAC
Pin 6 - 262VAC
Pin 7 - 282VDC

V4
Pin 1 - 50VDC
Pin 2 - 10mVAC
Pin 7 - 1.1VDC
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Phil_S
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Re: 1967 Gibson GA5-T Amp Issues

Post by Phil_S »

For what you are doing here, everything in the circuit after the rectifier (V3) is DC. That's what the rectifier does. It rectifies AC into DC. Only the filaments (heaters) are AC. Clip the black lead to a bolt that goes through the chassis. Probe with the red lead.
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Re: 1967 Gibson GA5-T Amp Issues

Post by texstrat »

Phil:

I grounded to the chassis. Will my results differ by grounding to the AC plug?

I will recheck the voltage values against those listed in the chart and report back.
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Re: 1967 Gibson GA5-T Amp Issues

Post by texstrat »

New values using the different ground:

V1
Pin 1 - 117VDC
Pin 2 - 0
Pin 3 - 1.12VDC
Pin 6 - 78VDC
Pin 7 - 49mVDC
Pin 8 - 0.6VDC

V2
Pin 2 - 10mV
Pin 3 - 8.0VDC
Pin 7 - 265VDC
Pin 9 - 262VDC

V3
Pin 1 - 262VAC
Pin 6 - 262VAC
Pin 7 - 285VDC or 86VAC

V4
Pin 1 - 50VDC
Pin 2 - 8mVAC
Pin 7 - 1.1VDC

So there is some voltage in V2 and V4 pin 2 when it they should read zero. V1 and V4 pin 1 are low, should read 150V and 200V. V1, V2 and V4 pin 3 voltages are low, should read 2.3V. V1 pin 6 is low, should read 100V?. V1 pin 7 is showing voltage when it should be zero. V1 pin 8 is low, should be 1.0 or 1.6V?

Anyway, what do I have going on here?
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martin manning
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Re: 1967 Gibson GA5-T Amp Issues

Post by martin manning »

First, I think what you have listed as pin 7 on V4 should be pin 3. Also, In your layout diagram you are missing a jumper from V3 pin 5 to V3 pin 2, which is the ground for V1a's cathode (the input stage).

The 86 VAC you are measuring on V3 pin 7 is a very high ripple voltage. I'd disconnect the red wire from the multi-cap (just cut it) and measure again. The 22uF Xicon cap is replacing its function, but if the multi-cap's 20uF section is faulty it may be preventing the newer cap from doing its job.

I think that you should go ahead and replace the other two sections of the multi-cap with two new electrolytics (10uf, 300V minimum), the 10uF cathode cap on V4 (might be easier to use a new 4k7 resistor there too). Also replace that 47uF electrolytic on V1a with the correct 1uF, and replace V1a's cathode resistor with the correct 2k2 value.

It's possible that the trem may start working somewhere along the line.
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Re: 1967 Gibson GA5-T Amp Issues

Post by texstrat »

Correct, V4 pin 3 measures 1.13V not pin 7 and there is a jumper between pins 2 and 5 on V3. I missed that when I redrew the layout. I need to go back through and double check.

Since the multi-cap that is in there now is a 20/10/10 @ 450V would it be safe to go with a JJ can capacitor, rated 32µF x 32µF / 500V, or do I need to be closer to the original rating? By replacing the multi-cap I can do away with the 22uf Xicon?

Do you mind explaining to me what is happening with the amp so I have a better idea and understanding. Also, which should I do first, second, etc. and should I test, get voltages as I make each change? As you and Phil said in the beginning of this thread move slowly.

Any recommendations on brand, type of capacitors that would compliment the amp?

Thanks for you help.
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martin manning
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Re: 1967 Gibson GA5-T Amp Issues

Post by martin manning »

Ok, the transformer output is in the form of a sine wave, actually two sine waves that are 180 degrees out of phase. Each red wire from the PT secondary carries one of them, and the red/yellow wire (the center tap) is common to both. The rectifier tube contains two diodes, which only allow current to flow in one direction. The diodes essentially eliminate the bottom (negative voltage) half of each wave, and then superimpose them at pin 7. What you would have at pin 7 without the 20uF capacitor is a waveform that would look like a series of humps, from zero to some peak positive voltage. The capacitor functions like an energy storage reservoir, the same way a flywheel turns the discrete power pulses of a reciprocating engine into relatively smooth shaft torque. If the reservoir cap is incapable of storing sufficient charge, there will be a lot of the pulsating character (ripple) left. I suspect that the "red" section of the multi-cap is nearly shorting out the new Xicon.

The first thing I'd do is cut the red lead from the multi-cap and see what that does.

Electrolytic caps have a finite life-span, and it's a pretty safe bet that yours are past due, and the other two sections of the multi-cap are probably not within spec. If you want to preserve/restore the original character of the amp, I wouldn't change the values from those shown on the schematic too much, not more than 10-20% say, as the amount of filtering will affect the tone.

To replace the multi-cap completely, you can leave that 22uF Xicon where it is, and find some way to wire and secure two 10uF caps somewhere else. You could also make up a bundle of three new caps, and find a way to use the clamp or just the mounting hole that was used to secure the original to tie the bundle down. Or, you might be able to find something close to the original such as here:
http://www.vibroworld.com/parts/tech15.html#cans
There is a 1" diameter 20-10-10 can listed.

There is a 10-10 with wire leads here:
http://www.tubesandmore.com/scripts/fox ... I%26SINGLE

This also applies to the cathode bypass caps like the 10uF on V4. That cap boosts the gain of the oscillator, and it may have degraded enough that the trem won't break into oscillation any longer.

I'd replace the 47uF at V1a's cathode with the correct value just to restore it to the original schematic.
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Re: 1967 Gibson GA5-T Amp Issues

Post by texstrat »

Good information.

I will cut the red lead and check the value again. What do you think the composition of the 10uf cap between V3 and V4 is? It looks like it is carbon. The Gibson amps from what I have read are thin sounding, so what type of cap would provide a bit more bass tone?

Thanks.
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martin manning
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Re: 1967 Gibson GA5-T Amp Issues

Post by martin manning »

If cutting the red lead from the multi-cap doesn't change things much, I think you should go ahead and replace all three of the power supply filters (the 20, 10, and 10uF), and eliminate that question. BTW, are you hearing any 120Hz hum in the speaker?

These caps we are talking about will all be aluminum electrolytics, and usually anything that is 1uF or larger in value is. Note they are polarized, and must be installed in the correct orientation.

Larger cathode bypass caps will boost low frequency response, and that may be what whomever put the 47uF cap on V1a was after. It is twice as big as it would ever need to be, however. I would keep the value of the 10uF bypass cap shared by V1b and V4 at 10uF, as I believe it has an impact on the depth of the tremolo effect.

I would recommend getting this thing working as intended before doing any modifications.

If you want to go looking for other ways to get more low end, you can increase the values of the coupling caps (the 0.01uf's between stages on V1's pin 1 and 6), or try adding a big bypass cap (100uF, 25V) across V2's 150-ohm cathode resistor. The latter would be a very easy experiment to try.
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