Output Impedance

Express, Liverpool, Rocket, Dirty Little Monster, etc.

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UR12
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Re: Output Impedance

Post by UR12 »

Richie wrote:
I've tried several different O/T specifications and models and have found only one that worked really well side by side with an original outstanding sounding Wreck.

Even the Wrecks used different transformers,and Ken experimented with many others. What was the outstanding sounding wreck useing for an OT?
You mean there may be more than one outstanding Wreck out there with a different spec'ed tranny? How could that be?? Last I heard, Ken didn't own a computer so I wonder who he had doing all of his modeling. :lol:
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dartanion
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Re: Output Impedance

Post by dartanion »

I've built a bunch of Wreck style amps with differing OTs and they all sound good. Just different. Throw in the influence of the speaker(s) and tubes, and the tonal shaping becomes ever more complex. You can only model so much before you put theories to an empirical test.
Eardrums!!! We don't need no stinkin' eardrums!
'67_Plexi
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Re: Output Impedance

Post by '67_Plexi »

UR12 wrote:
'67_Plexi wrote: He really wasn't asking anything technical, so why bog the thread down with information that is probably irrelevant.
Again, no harm, no foul.


Making the statement that you reduce the 3rd and 5th harmonics by 20% seems like a pretty technical reply to a non technical question if you ask me. Of course I am no expert like you. I also never implied that you were making anything up. I just thought that since you had all of this "expert knowledge" you might like to share a little bit about how you arrived at your findings. I guess I was wrong. Last time I checked this was a public forum and your answer is viewed by people other than the original poster.
'67_Plexi wrote: Everyones an expert on the internet :)
WTF is that supposed to mean? Some people are legends in their own mind too!! :roll:
Why the sarcasm, that doesn't help anyone.

What 'Everyone is an expert' mean is exactly that, it wasn't a dig at you, I don't know you. BTW, did you build an amp for Matte Henderson last year ? Your name seems familiar ?
In all other walks of life except the internet your knowledge or work is judged by what you have acheived, not what you say you can acheive. On the internet, it doesn't work like that. If you think that was aimed at you, you are being paranoid. I was using it to rationalise why you were challenging me....**I** was the internet expert' in this case and you were asking me to back it up. Thats all.

If anyone is genuinely interested to know the test equipment and methods I used, then they can PM me because I'm not wasting my time putting it up here.....for what ?? To get another response like the last one.

My favourite Express was one of five owned by a friend of mine, happens to be his favourite to. 6.6K O/T. Sounded INCREDIBLE. Obviously not all atributed to the O/T.

I get the message, I really do know where I am not welcome.

Kind Regards, Alan.
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UR12
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Re: Output Impedance

Post by UR12 »

'67_Plexi wrote:
Why the sarcasm, that doesn't help anyone.

What 'Everyone is an expert' mean is exactly that, it wasn't a dig at you, I don't know you. BTW, did you build an amp for Matte Henderson last year ? Your name seems familiar ?
In all other walks of life except the internet your knowledge or work is judged by what you have acheived, not what you say you can acheive. On the internet, it doesn't work like that. If you think that was aimed at you, you are being paranoid. I was using it to rationalise why you were challenging me....**I** was the internet expert' in this case and you were asking me to back it up. Thats all.

If anyone is genuinely interested to know the test equipment and methods I used, then they can PM me because I'm not wasting my time putting it up here.....for what ?? To get another response like the last one.

My favourite Express was one of five owned by a friend of mine, happens to be his favourite to. 6.6K O/T. Sounded INCREDIBLE. Obviously not all atributed to the O/T.

I get the message, I really do know where I am not welcome.

Kind Regards, Alan.
Let me put it this way. There seems to be an almost god like status attached to Ken's work. Personally I don't believe a lot of the mojo crap I hear like the color of wire makes a difference in the tone of the amp. Right or wrong, until someone can prove to me why it affects the sound I don't believe it. When someone comes along making blanket statements here in regards to technical aspects of a TW amp, I (and I am sure others) would like to know how they arrived at their conclusions. An answer like "I get a lot of amps across my bench" or "I modeled it" or "I am not wasting my time to explain it here" is just a BS answer. When a person side steps the same question over and over that "usually" means they either don’t have an answer or they, for what ever reason, don't want to share the information. If you told me that you wire all of your amps with pink wire because they sound better I would have also asked you why you believe that. If you feel threatened by my question then it would seem you are the one paranoid not me. If Ken himself had came here and posted the response that you did I would have asked ( and have in the past) him to please explain his findings so don’t take it personal.

I don’t build a lot of amps for people anymore. Maybe 3 or 4 a year. Who I build amps for is my business and I usually don’t go around discussing those kind of things in public because I respect the owner’s privacy. I am not in the business of building amps nor do I ever want to be so I have no need to advertise or resort to “name dropping”. I like to tinker and try and network with other hobbyists where I can. I make enough money to keep my hobby going and that is about it. I like designing and working on new things and not just building the same amp over and over.


You probably remember my name from the thread a while back where you called all of us on this forum (I’ll paraphrase) “unethical/evil cloners” who were cashing in on Ken’s designs and took the hypocritical stance that you weren’t one of us because you only sold cloned amps to real TW owners. Did you come to that conclusion using modeling or was that real world experience also?
Last edited by UR12 on Fri Sep 19, 2008 6:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
'67_Plexi
Posts: 309
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Location: Haverhill, MA

Re: Output Impedance

Post by '67_Plexi »

UR12 wrote:
'67_Plexi wrote:
Why the sarcasm, that doesn't help anyone.

What 'Everyone is an expert' mean is exactly that, it wasn't a dig at you, I don't know you. BTW, did you build an amp for Matte Henderson last year ? Your name seems familiar ?
In all other walks of life except the internet your knowledge or work is judged by what you have acheived, not what you say you can acheive. On the internet, it doesn't work like that. If you think that was aimed at you, you are being paranoid. I was using it to rationalise why you were challenging me....**I** was the internet expert' in this case and you were asking me to back it up. Thats all.

If anyone is genuinely interested to know the test equipment and methods I used, then they can PM me because I'm not wasting my time putting it up here.....for what ?? To get another response like the last one.

My favourite Express was one of five owned by a friend of mine, happens to be his favourite to. 6.6K O/T. Sounded INCREDIBLE. Obviously not all atributed to the O/T.

I get the message, I really do know where I am not welcome.

Kind Regards, Alan.
Let me put it this way. There seems to be an almost god like status attached to Ken's work. Personally I don't believe a lot of the mojo crap I hear like the color of wire makes a difference in the tone of the amp. Right or wrong, until someone can prove to me why it affects the sound I don't believe it. When someone comes along making blanket statements here in regards to technical aspects of a TW amp, I (and I am sure others) would like to know how they arrived at their conclusions. An answer like "I get a lot of amps across my bench" or "I modeled it" or "I am not wasting my time to explain it here" is just a BS answer. When a person side steps the same question over and over that "usually" means they either don’t have an answer or they, for what ever reason, don't want to share the information. If you told me that you wire all of your amps with pink wire because they sound better I would have also asked you why you believe that. If you feel threatened by my question then it would seem you are the one paranoid not me. If Ken himself had came here and posted the response that you did I would have asked ( and have in the past) him to please explain his findings so don’t take it personal.

I don’t build a lot of amps for people anymore. Maybe 3 or 4 a year. Who I build amps for is my business and I usually don’t go around discussing those kind of things in public because I respect the owner’s privacy. I am not in the business of building amps nor do I ever want to be so I have no need to advertise or result to “name dropping”. I like to tinker and try and network with other hobbyists where I can. I make enough money to keep my hobby going and that is about it. I like designing and working on new things and not just building the same amp over and over.


You probably remember my name from the thread a while back where you called all of us on this forum (I’ll paraphrase) “unethical/evil cloners” who were cashing in on Ken’s designs and took the hypocritical stance that you weren’t one of us because you only sold cloned amps to real TW owners. Did you come to that conclusion using modeling or was that real world experience also?
I like you Dana, seriously, you give me a run for my money.
Just let's not make the mistake of getting personal. I wasn't name dropping, if I was going to do that, I could have made a much better pick (just kidding).....I was just trying to figure where I knew your name from. However, a PM reminded me that I said I wanted to meet you face to face at the amp show. THats where I knew your name from. Maybe you originally read that as personally threatening. I don't do personal arguments or physical, you would probably beat the crap out of me anyway. In my entire life I've never been in a fight....so that was certainly not what I was eluding to. I think I just wanted to meet you and debate in person. THat way, it's much easier not to get all 'internet mad' and misinterpreted. I ended up not going because I was just too busy.
I respect what you do regarding building amps and if what you do makes you happy, then that is what it's about.
As for the 'clone' thing. I have long since chilled out about anything like that. The intent was fine, I just never thought what would happen if one of the guys sold one. Then that happened, now any difference is irrelevant, plus he's cashed in on the fact that I don't just make them for anyone and gets nearly three times what he bought it from me for. That makes me look really bad....like the 'super cloner' thats really cashing in when in reality I never got any money from that deal. So I don't build TW clones for anyone, plus, it doesn't fit the direction I am going in. I get a few requests occasionally and I actually just refer them to Allyn now. Most people who want a TW clone want it to be a very accurate replica of an original. Allyn has that nailed.
I do apologise to anyone on here who I may have offended at the time of my 'hollier than thou' stance.

As for you Dana....seriously......let me offer you a bid of friendship instead of bickering at each other. When I meet you in person and have the chance to buy you a drink I will and we can debate in person without a keyboard and the internet clouding the signals. Lifes too short to have bad feelings , especially over bloody amplifiers !!

Cheers, Alan.

p.s. I don't believe in the mojo crap either, totally agree. I still do perfer the 6.6K transformer though :) but let's leave that for a face to face amp discusiion.
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UR12
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Re: Output Impedance

Post by UR12 »

If you make it 5th of Tequilla then we have a deal. But I still find it very hard to believe that just going from a 6.6k tranny to a 5.2k or vice versa will result in a 20% difference in 3rd and 5th harmonics. I am just having a hard time buying it. There are some amps I like the 6.6k tranny on and some I like the 5.2k tranny on. One of the best sounding clones I have personally heard was running one that was actually measured over 7k. Everyones ears are different. It sounded so much better than some others that we actually measured the tranny to see what was going on. So if we do meet one day you better be prepared to discuss how you arrived at that conclusion.
'67_Plexi
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Re: Output Impedance

Post by '67_Plexi »

UR12 wrote:If you make it 5th of Tequilla then we have a deal. But I still find it very hard to believe that just going from a 6.6k tranny to a 5.2k or vice versa will result in a 20% difference in 3rd and 5th harmonics. I am just having a hard time buying it. There are some amps I like the 6.6k tranny on and some I like the 5.2k tranny on. One of the best sounding clones I have personally heard was running one that was actually measured over 7k. Everyones ears are different. It sounded so much better than some others that we actually measured the tranny to see what was going on. So if we do meet one day you better be prepared to discuss how you arrived at that conclusion.
You're on !!

You know I agree with you, depending on the amp at hand, I may prefer a lower impedance on some more than others. As a general rule in these circuits and the ones I have worked on, the ones I like tend to be 6.6K. Who knows, thats probably one of several reasons. I mean you can change a single preamp tube on these amps for another good tube, same make, model etc and the difference can be more than the impedance change, so I do understand your point.
When I do see you, I'll tell you the test situation and gear I used to come to my conclusion. Anyway, all that can wait......
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