Did you guys read this?

[Tubetwang]

Leo who?
Kottke?

Leo huh...er...Fender...

Most every night, i dream that i'm sitting next to Lupe wiring up chassis...

Roy Orbison is visiting Leo in the research department, while i sweep the floor...

That guy was a genius...

[Structo]

Yeah, I knew who you were referring to.
Just a little levity on my part...

[grindliner]

In regards to who owns the Trainwreck name, I found the info here:

http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f= ... m9474d.2.7

Seeing that Ken owned it, one would assume that his estate owns it until it expires.


As to how long the Trademark is good for:

"For a trademark registration to remain valid, an Affidavit of Use (Section 8 Affidavit) must be filed: (1) between the fifth and sixth year following registration, and (2) within the year before the end of every ten-year period after the date of registration. The registrant may file the affidavit within a grace period of six months after the end of the sixth or tenth year, with payment of an additional fee. The registrant must also file a Section 9 renewal application within the year before the expiration date of a registration, or within a grace period of six months after the expiration date, with payment of an additional fee. Assuming that affidavit of use is timely filed, registrations granted PRIOR to November 16, 1989 have a 20-year term, and registrations granted on or after November 16, 1989 have a 10-year term. This is also true for the renewal periods; renewals granted PRIOR to November 16, 1989 have a 20-year term, and renewals granted on or after November 16, 1989 have a 10-year term."



It looks as if it's set to expire in 2009.

[dartanion]

USPTO again huh!

The problem is that the link is associated with a session, and it times out after a couple of minutes.

If you search under Trademarks, you'll find 7 entries under TrainWreck. Everything from T-Shirts to braclets, and broadcasting to restaurant services. Then there's Ken's TrainWreck trademark.

Search Express Amp and lookee who owns that trademark name!!
Easier just to point you here: http://mesaboogie.com/Trademarks/Trademarks.htm

This is how New Sensor swindled the Svetlana name away from SED. Trademark had expired, and NS was waiting in the wings to snatch it away.

[skyboltone]

The site is legitimate. Stephen ran the site for Ken before and is continuing to do so now with the consent and full knowledge of the family. He is a great guy and all that is said there is accurate. The quote was from Ken. Ken and I were good friends for 35 years and I continue to remain close with the family. I grew up in Colonia and still live less than 10 minutes from the Fischer home. I only mention this so you know that my knowledge is first hand. Ken's death has been extremely painful to me and disruptive to my life. I read these posts out of curiosity, but choose to rarely post myself unless I feel I have something worthwhile or necessary to post.

This is right on the money. There are several guys on board here that knew Ken personally. In an old issue of Vintage Guitar I've got around here somewhere there's an interview with him. He didn't mind sharing his stuff but commented that he had more respect for folks willing to go out on a limb and try making their own contribution to a given scheme. By all accounts he was just a regular dude with a good set of ears and an encyclopedic understanding of how tone gets shaped in a guitar amp.

[gearhead]

I hope someone that runs his estate (family) takes up the banner to renew it. I'd hate to see some big corp snatch it up and dilute the name.

Take note; unless you are passing off products as originals, patent and trademark enforcement is up to the holder of the patent/trademark via civil litigation.

[dartanion]

I hope someone that runs his estate (family) takes up the banner to renew it. I'd hate to see some big corp snatch it up and dilute the name.

Take note; unless you are passing off products as originals, patent and trademark enforcement is up the the holder of the patent/trademark via civil litigation.

YUP!

You can violate patents, trademarks, service marks, word marks, etc. all you want and continue to do so until the holder defends their IP. That's when things get ugly.

I think it was sometime in the late 80s, but something as simple and ubiquitous as intermittent windshield wipers was a hot topic in IP litigation. The original inventor of the intermittent wiper system sued the automotive industry and won big. The rheostatic contol soon went away in favor of preset delay frequencies on a switch.

Found it: http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2005 ... 05398.html

Funny that Ford would fight over $5 million when they brought in about $6 billion in earnings that year.

But you see how it works now. File suit, then 8 years later you get a jury verdict. Defendant appeals, then agrees out of court for a final settlement. Gosh, it's not like they weren't caught with their hand in the cookie jar

[gearhead]

Now one BIG thing that is illegal, and a criminal offense (meaning you can be arrested and jailed) is counterfeiting of products. If you try to pass off a knockoff as an original, advertising it as such, then the Law gets involved.

[dartanion]

Now one BIG thing that is illegal, and a criminal offense (meaning you can be arrested and jailed) is counterfeiting of products. If you try to pass off a knockoff as an original, advertising it as such, then the Law gets involved.

Yes, but stealing the technology and using it as your own in your products marketed under your name happens all the time.

[skyboltone]

Now one BIG thing that is illegal, and a criminal offense (meaning you can be arrested and jailed) is counterfeiting of products. If you try to pass off a knockoff as an original, advertising it as such, then the Law gets involved.

Yes, but stealing the technology and using it as your own in your products marketed under your name happens all the time.

I wonder why nobody ever made a Hammond organ but Hammond? Little spinning wheels with air? I guess or was it light? running through for pitch and then electronic shaping. Complex suckers and probably a good thing to buy a warehouse full of for later generations.

[funkmeblue]

I would say boogie trademarked the express name so no one else could use it

[gearhead]

Now one BIG thing that is illegal, and a criminal offense (meaning you can be arrested and jailed) is counterfeiting of products. If you try to pass off a knockoff as an original, advertising it as such, then the Law gets involved.

Yes, but stealing the technology and using it as your own in your products marketed under your name happens all the time.

It depends on how the company obtains that information. If by copying a patent, that's a patent infringement issue; civil. The flipside of that is that companies sometimes don't get patents because that DOES put them out in the open; they protect them as "Trade Secrets". Now, if an insider passes along (or thru industrial espionage obtains) a trade secret, that's theft in the US.

[dartanion]

I know of 2 guys that have worked for me in the past for 2 different clients, that have stolen work product for their own gain. The work products are the property of the client, but if the client doesn't know or doesn't care, they get away with it. I know these examples well because I designed both products for the clients and these guys had the nerve to try and get me to help them commercialize the products. Illegal as hell, and I would have no part of it. Eventually this will all catch up with them, and in fact I think it has for a large part as their reputations precede them....in a bad way.

It's not my job to inform the now well former client of what is happening. It's the clients responsibility to enforce their contracts and protect their IP. The larger problem is the "Big" consulting shops who have ruined much of this market. Poor service, high prices, and repackaged work product that was done for another client. I can't tell you how much documentation that is stolen and reused by these shops. It's so bad that I have caught them red handed numerous times by checking document properties, finding names of personnel from other companies, other companies' logos and inside information still embedded.

[Guitarfetish]

I think these types of discussions always get off the topic- Is making a "Trainwreck" for yourself or buying a "TW Expression" from Malaysia or a similar "Expres Style" amp somehow infringing either on Trainwrecks legal rights or breaking some kind of moral barrier.

Obviously anyone selling a product that carries the brand name "Trainwreck" is opening themselves up to lititgation. Regardless the status of Kens patent- there is proven prior art, there is proof of acceptance into the marketplace and proof of some commercial transactions using that established brand name.

There is plenty of precedence for "Trade Dress" lititgation- Believe me- I get a Cease and Desist letter every friggin week from the big manufacturers regarding some ticky tack thing. Could Kenny's heirs or someone now possession the "Trainwreck" business go after people who market similar "looking" amps. YES. Could they prevail in a court of law. NO. Why? Because part of the test of Trade Dress infringement has nothing to do with the product, but with the time, money and effort exerted to market the look of the product. Since Trainwreck's "LOOK" was slightly different for every amp, and since each amp was considered "custom built"- it cannot be used as a defacto standard for a Trade Dress suit.

What about building clones of Trainwrecks for yourself. Well what about it? Who cares?? NOTHING about the amplifier is protected in any way. It was one guys idea, based upon slight tweaks of existing circuits. Randall Smith protected his idea, Kenny did not. Since there is NO Trainwreck to patronize right now- build away.

I have a couple of Trainwreck clones- I've named then "Trainwhack" and made a suitable logo. When people ask about them I tell them about Kenny and the incredible cult that has arisen since his death. Since I'll never sell them it doesn't matter what I name them- I could call them Trainwrecks if I chose to- nobody could do anything about it. I could also buy a Rolex on Canal Street and fool some people. I'll do neither.

If Marshall made an exact "Trainwreck" amp tomorrow, they would absolutely be able to sell and market that amp. Whoever pursued them would find an incredibly well funded foe that would spend more on marketing in the first ten minutes than Kenny did in his lifetime. They'd argue that the products were not "commercial products". They were handmade craft works, that no dealers existed, no sales reps, the company never exhibited at trade shows, and did not file the required "proof of use" filings with the USPTO. They'd make anyone pursuing them spend tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of dollars, and they'd win because when it comes to fights like this- the deep pockets usually beat the shallow pockets.

99.9% of IP enforcement comes in the form of a threatening letter. Very, very few cases go to court, and the results of those litigations almost never turn out the way you think.

The fact is all the Trainwreck and Dumble defenders can do is knock auctions off of ebay, which seems to be a great moral victory for some. If there was a real commercial interest in TW inspired amps, you'd see them made by many manufacturers. There isn't. There is a very strong and very loyal underground following that will continue to grow, but always be a tiny percentage of the amp buying public. Shakespeare ain't exactly dominating the TV ratings either.

I think the guy protecting Kenny's legacy should start building amps- carry the torch. If the brand name is so valuable and precious then I think people will line up to buy them.

[gearhead]

This discussion was kicked up about a year and a half ago too; prior to Ken's passing away.

The only, but big, thing that Trainwreck Amps has is the Trainwreck Trademark. Did a search back then, and unless things have changed, there are no patents on any Trainwreck amp designs and afaik no trade secrets involved. That's besides the "handmade craft" angle which I've never heard of (that GF is obviously well-versed; thanks!).

Basically, build away. Just don't name your amps Trainwreck.

If the family want's to build more "Trainwreck" amps, that's their right. Will they get much money from it? Probably not, unless they sell it to one of the big boys. Would it dilute Ken's legacy? Only time will tell.