General disclaimer and waiver of liability

[Leo_Gnardo]

How about mounting a chassis cover secured by screws, then have a sticker that goes on the chassis and bottom plate like a seal that says: Warranty Invalid if Seal is Broken. No User Serviceable Components Inside. Risk of Electrocution if opened.

Yup, that's good. My 1960 Hewlett-Packard scope built for the Air Force has lots of telltale sticker-seals. All of them long since broken but so what. It is a good concept but only addresses those who pry open their gear. Still doesn't prevent morons from trying to play guitar while standing in their pool, or singing thru a microphone while taking a shower. (Isn't this what did in Keith Relf of the Yardbirds?)

[Teleguy61]

In addition to my insurance caveat above, I would add that there is no waiver of liability, signed or unsigned, posted or unposted, that will stand up in court if you are being sued by a claimant.

[Structo]

For outdoor gigs, isn't it code to use GFI circuits on all the stage power?

I have wondered about that before and whether or not they would perform very well with a huge current draw.

I know in the construction industry they had to have GFI on all outside power.

The trouble was when you were working in the rain, if the plug ends got wet it would trip the GFI.
Very frustrating to do work in the rain because you were always running over to the spider box to reset the GFI.

Basically if anything you were using got wet it tripped the breaker.

[gktamps]

I agree with pretty much all of ToneMerc's comments on this. A waiver of liability is basically worthless in this situation. I'm not a lawyer, but I've paid one for help with business contracts that include liability waivers and hold harmless agreements.

Even if you could get every buyer down the line to sign a waiver, they get a pass if they can claim successfully you did something incorrectly, causing a loss. The real bottom line is, anyone can sue you anytime for just about anything if they can show enough cause to get into court.

The good news is in this economy, the legal system has contracted; fewer people have the money to pay legal fees and court costs, so fewer cases are being brought these past few years.

The cost of product liability insurance is based on product, exposure, years of manufacturing experience, and a host of other variables, and is not extremely expensive for small production businesses, unless the industry has a big litigation risk (guns being the best example used earlier).

I used to sell NOS British and Italian car parts online, but even with paragraphs of disclaimers, and the fact I was basically selling 40 year old hidden treasures, I had a guy threaten to sue when he installed a master cylinder in his Porsche without rebuilding it, even though that instruction was given with the auction description and included in the packing of the part. I had to pay him $$ to settle him down, and that was the last hydraulic part I sold, and in fact, have been hesitant even to sell things like engine parts, which the buyer could claim caused damage in a failure.

[ToneMerc]

Here's a great example of how an individual can get roped into a lawsuit and not necessarily be directly involved in the incident. Also, see the comment about the disclaimer.

http://www.newsmax.com/TheWire/nascar-f ... /id/492302

TM

[Leo_Gnardo]

For outdoor gigs, isn't it code to use GFI circuits on all the stage power?

Basically if anything you were using got wet it tripped the breaker.

Rarely seen in practice. I did one folkie gig @ 30 years ago that had GFI's. Kept snapping off all thru setup & soundcheck. Luckily that stopped once the talent got on stage @ noon & show ran 'til 7 PM with no further GFI follies. (By coincidence that was the first time I got to put an EV RE20 mic on standup bass, Molly Mason was playing, and that was a memorably good sounding combination.)

At those college gigs, the in-house electrician set up a breaker box on a stick with plenty of edison outlets. About a dozen 20A circuits and no miswired, dogged-out outlets. Power to spare. Also a freshly driven ground stake. God bless 'em. Never had a problem.

If that grass-dancing guitarist somehow got 700V B+ on him I think he would be dancing a hell of a jig even if a GFI was on the line.

Hundreds & hundreds of pro gigs all over the world, and haven't seen a GFI onstage since that folkie fest @ 1980. In dressing rooms & trailers yes, but not in the stage electrics.

[cbass]

SO I need to know who to sue? When Reel's Fried cherry cream cheese pie thing burns my mouth.

The microwave manufacture?Cause their microwave made my cherry cheese pie too hot.

The pie maker?For not warning me their pies get hot in the microwave.

Reel ?for postin it on the internet.

[JazzGuitarGimp]

SO I need to know who to sue? When Reel's Fried cherry cream cheese pie thing burns my mouth.

The microwave manufacture?Cause their microwave made my cherry cheese pie too hot.

The pie maker?For not warning me their pies get hot in the microwave.

Reel ?for postin it on the internet.

Most people (read: their lawyers) woul just name all three as defendants.

[cbass]

SO I need to know who to sue? When Reel's Fried cherry cream cheese pie thing burns my mouth.

The microwave manufacture?Cause their microwave made my cherry cheese pie too hot.

The pie maker?For not warning me their pies get hot in the microwave.

Reel ?for postin it on the internet.

Most people (read: their lawyers) woul just name all three as defendants.

I'm fat too. Can we sue them for that?I wouldn't be so fat If I had never heard about these microwave cherry cheese pies.
It's really affecting my career as an underwear model.

[ToneMerc]

SO I need to know who to sue? When Reel's Fried cherry cream cheese pie thing burns my mouth.

The microwave manufacture?Cause their microwave made my cherry cheese pie too hot.

The pie maker?For not warning me their pies get hot in the microwave.

Reel ?for postin it on the internet.

Most people (read: their lawyers) woul just name all three as defendants.

I'm fat too. Can we sue them for that?I wouldn't be so fat If I had never heard about these microwave cherry cheese pies.
It's really affecting my career as an underwear model.

CB, you left out the spoon manufacturer....lol

TM

[Leo_Gnardo]

SO I need to know who to sue? When Reel's Fried cherry cream cheese pie thing burns my mouth.

The microwave manufacture?Cause their microwave made my cherry cheese pie too hot.

The pie maker?For not warning me their pies get hot in the microwave.

Reel ?for postin it on the internet.

Most people (read: their lawyers) woul just name all three as defendants.

I'm fat too. Can we sue them for that?I wouldn't be so fat If I had never heard about these microwave cherry cheese pies.
It's really affecting my career as an underwear model.

Wassamatta U? Rattle up some work as an XXL model. Also please don't pester poor Miles with any molten cherry cheeze pie lawsuits or he may send his current clients the gospel rappers over to your house to give a free concert. The neighbors will LUVVVV that!

[Reeltarded]

You can't sue me for eating a boiling hot cherry cream cheese fried pie. I give it to the World. Sue yourself.

Hey. Can one buy liability insurance against themselves? What if I hurt myself? What if I cause myself pain or suffering? I believe I have a really good case already.

[Phil_S]

This topic is a favorite of mine. I don't know why. I"m a licensed CPA, not a lawyer. They made us learn business law and there was a whole section (half day) devoted to it on the paper and pencil exam I took on cold winter day many years ago in, I kid you not, the cow palace at the state fair grounds. The concrete floor was cold and I wore 2 pairs of socks to keep my feet warm enough not to lose feeling or focus. But I diverge. The point here is that I've been schooled on the topic enough to know what to ask a lawyer, not to practice law, and to be able to understand the answer given by the lawyer.

FWIW, I concur with most of what is said here, except maybe for the part where the insurance company turns around and sues you. I don't think they can do that because you paid the premium and they agreed to cover you. If the insurance company isn't responsible, they weasel out early in the legal process. Well, I'm not 100% on this point, but I believe that's about right and it isn't worth debating it further.

The focus is for product liability. I don't think you can get a customer to waive his rights. The likely problem here is that consumers/end users are afforded significant legal protections that don't apply to commercial relationships and commercial transactions. While specifics vary from state to state, it doesn't vary that much for the purpose of this discussion.

I'm going guess that you get the best insulation by forming a C corporation (the regular old-time taxable corporate entity; may lack tax advantages) and purchasing the right type of liability insurance. This solution probably has higher operating and tax costs, but you can probably keep your house if you get sued and lose.

For a relatively young person, the risk is that what you build and sell has a very long tail -- by that I mean there is probably no statue of limitations running from the date of initial sale, so you are on the hook until you expire or the product is destroyed. Curiously, over time, I'll guess the farther out you get from date of original sale, the chances of getting sued probably decline, but I'm no book-maker when it comes to setting odds. I'm thinking it is worse yet for someone like me (over 60) -- I figure that I don't want someone taking my house from me when I'm 80.

The bottom line is that you've got to weigh the risks vs. rewards and decide what you can stomach.

I like what is says in another post (I forget who) about the cost of the insurance premium vs. the potential settlement to be extorted for a bogus but court-worthy claim. I suspect his dollar measure is off for the cost of insurance. I'd guess it is more like $5,000, not $500 to buy enough coverage. (Anyone here actually bought this insurance?) I say this because an underwriter will look at your experience profile and take into consideration the inherent dangers of making/selling a high voltage appliance. He probably won't like the odds and that will jack up the premium -- if you can even get someone to sell you insurance.

I want to make the case that boutique amp makers are probably taking on a disproportionate amount of risk. Though it pains me to say it, I'd urge you to find some other way to make money. Don't get me wrong here, I admire the entrepreneurial spirit, but modern government and jurisprudence and the like have really done enough to ruin it for some people. I, for one, just can't reason this out to the point where I'm willing to say "chuck it, I'll do it anyway (OK, it begins with another letter),"

[Bob S]

Brilliant !
Sue myself !
I'm a millionaire !
Now I just have to work myself to death to pay a million to me & 2 to the lawyer.
What's wrong with this picture.

[Reeltarded]

I got it! Ok, sue yourself, get one of those advertised JG Wentworth places to buy you out of the settlement and then sue yourself for false representation on your behalf with the buyout people.

I think any right minded judge would agree that a new Lamborghini is not frivolous.

877-CASHNOW

rofl