I have been holding out folks, my baby is attached to view

['67_Plexi]

Just for information, Paul builds and repairs amps (and very well from what I saw) and is as addicted to this whole thing as any of us.

As far as I'm concerned, especially with the intial cynicisnm that was shown towards his first posts, Paul should be welcomed as a very valuable and qualified member of this forum.

Alan.

[Normster]

Just for information, Paul builds and repairs amps (and very well from what I saw) and is as addicted to this whole thing as any of us.

As far as I'm concerned, especially with the intial cynicisnm that was shown towards his first posts, Paul should be welcomed as a very valuable and qualified member of this forum.

Alan.

Well, since he owns an original, I'd say his addiction is greater than mine!

So...did you guys record any clips? Compare a clone to the original? I know it's an old cliche, but "inquiring minds want to know!"

Doh, never mind. Just saw your thread.

['67_Plexi]

We didn't have really enough time to do anything like that, plus I don't think recorded audio would tell the story. The difference was more in the feel of the two amps while you are playing rather than the sound. Each of the amps could be set up to sound very similar to the other. The feel difference was big however.
Without sounding cliche: the HRM sort of works with you and helps you along, wheras the 6L6 requires you to control it 100% and if you are in control it rewards you in a huge way. If you are not in control it will highlight all your failings. This amp would make a good player sound great and a bad player sound dreadful. THe HRM has some very similar properties, but was a little more forgiving.
If you were to use an anology with cars, the HRM was like a late model Porsche 911, smooth with all the refinements, whereas #84 was like a classic Ferrari Dino, raw and exhilarating demanding to be driven. Both great cars, just different.

It was a comparison of a 50W 6L6 model with a 100W EL34 model, so it's not a level playing field to begin with either. To get the 100W to behave something like the 50W required more volume, which absolutely tells me that if you are planning on playing just clubs with your build, it's much easier to get the sweet spot with a 50W without having to wake the dead.
Don't get me wrong, the 50W is also a very loud amp, probably the loudest 50W out there. This is also a lot to do with the sensitivity of the EVM-12L.

Talking about speakers, I know many people have tried lots of different speakers with some success, but to get the tone right I'm absolutely convinced the EV is really the easiest way to go. I tried many speakers in mine and the EV was the loudest and most transparent of them all (by far). You could hear every tweak or change you made. There's no cone cry even at ear splitting levels and the frequency response is fairly flat and perfect for this type of amp.

Also my disclaimer is that the HRM is my (inspired) build and believe me even with all the info on this site, there are still things that may be different compared to an original. However we do have a very good 'collective' recipe for a really nice HRM amp, regardless, using the 97 as a base and especially with the tweaks suggested by Scott.
Learning to tune an amp by ear is way more fun than out and out cloning anyway. Your results will be much closer if you use your ears rather than trying copy every component detail. Apart from the goop thing, Dumble also put a few other landmines in his amps that makes it very difficult to copy part for part anyway.

[chromkugel]

Sound clips later?

Do any of you know if there are many Dumbles outside the US? I only know about one in Norway, but it was sold to Sweden.

Tommy

:

the only one i know in germany is my beauty
but it is on ebay (Item number: 130054220482) at the moment and i think the dumble goes "home".

chromkugel

[makrisp]

We didn't have really enough time to do anything like that, plus I don't think recorded audio would tell the story. The difference was more in the feel of the two amps while you are playing rather than the sound. Each of the amps could be set up to sound very similar to the other. The feel difference was big however.
Without sounding cliche: the HRM sort of works with you and helps you along, wheras the 6L6 requires you to control it 100% and if you are in control it rewards you in a huge way. If you are not in control it will highlight all your failings. This amp would make a good player sound great and a bad player sound dreadful. THe HRM has some very similar properties, but was a little more forgiving.
If you were to use an anology with cars, the HRM was like a late model Porsche 911, smooth with all the refinements, whereas #84 was like a classic Ferrari Dino, raw and exhilarating demanding to be driven. Both great cars, just different.

It was a comparison of a 50W 6L6 model with a 100W EL34 model, so it's not a level playing field to begin with either. To get the 100W to behave something like the 50W required more volume, which absolutely tells me that if you are planning on playing just clubs with your build, it's much easier to get the sweet spot with a 50W without having to wake the dead.
Don't get me wrong, the 50W is also a very loud amp, probably the loudest 50W out there. This is also a lot to do with the sensitivity of the EVM-12L.

Talking about speakers, I know many people have tried lots of different speakers with some success, but to get the tone right I'm absolutely convinced the EV is really the easiest way to go. I tried many speakers in mine and the EV was the loudest and most transparent of them all (by far). You could hear every tweak or change you made. There's no cone cry even at ear splitting levels and the frequency response is fairly flat and perfect for this type of amp.

Also my disclaimer is that the HRM is my (inspired) build and believe me even with all the info on this site, there are still things that may be different compared to an original. However we do have a very good 'collective' recipe for a really nice HRM amp, regardless, using the 97 as a base and especially with the tweaks suggested by Scott.
Learning to tune an amp by ear is way more fun than out and out cloning anyway. Your results will be much closer if you use your ears rather than trying copy every component detail. Apart from the goop thing, Dumble also put a few other landmines in his amps that makes it very difficult to copy part for part anyway.

Alan,

I totally agree with your comments above, especially the last couple of lines in your statement above. Would like to say to all the folks out there, you will need to fine tune the amp with your ears, as Mr. Dumble is very clever. Alan can attest to what I am taking about.

To All The Folks Out There:
There are many d-clone circuits out there w/ pics & values of resistors, capacitors ect..., that are close but not fully correct. There are key areas to every preamp tube, like bypass caps, plate resitors, cathode resistors, negative feeback resistor ect... that become critical with the amps tone. I see too much time and focus being spent on items like (use a .01 vs a .02 cap in the phase inverter) - That will not make much of difference vs a .01 to a .1mf cap. Spend your time tweaking the right places and you will be rewarded in spades. Maybe the folks out there should be working backwards from the phase inverter, NFR and forward to the input section. Listen to the amp after every major change to each tube. You will not be dissapointed.
Remember, the Dumble should be clear, every note should sing, no flabby bass at all, and make you sound like crap if you cannot play.

Alan,
Let's get together and make the Dumbles scream!

[makrisp]

Folks,

EV 12L as Alan says!

Design your amps around that speaker, do not waste time on others.

[dogears]

Agreed it is a great speaker, but I really do prefer my Heritage G1265 resissues. I understand Dumble has sampled them too...... Fwiw, Alan and I had a speaker discussion and it is quite possible the voicing of the earlier nonHRM amps may gravitate towards the EVM, but the more Marshally HRM tone likes the Celestions. I would not make the tune to the EVM an absolute.

Folks,

EV 12L as Alan says!

Design your amps around that speaker, do not waste time on others.

[BobW]

makrisp, I fully agree speakers are a BIG factor, but also agree with what Dogears has mentioned in the past...there is no correct schematic (or speaker), there is a correct baseline.

What speakers were you using before you decided on the EVs?
Should I consider swapping out my D112F JBLs and try the EV12L or Heritage G1265?

Dogears,
Probably an ambigious question, but Can they make that much of a difference? Unfortunately most speakers are not sold as a try before you buy basis.

On a side note, I can achieve a dumble type singing tone out of my clone, while my equally capable friend cannot using the same rig, same settings. He plays with a pick, I don't. He's 6' tall, I'm 5'7"
It's a whole series of variables from everything in between your fingers/pick to the speaker.

['67_Plexi]

Speakers make a massive difference, probably one of the biggest for a single component.

BTW...I have two brand new Tonkers that if anyone wants them they can have them for the price of postage + $20 for my time to pack them. I hated them beyond belief, but others may have a use for them.

The first person to respond on this thread saying that they want them, gets them. I have no use for anything in my workshop that takes up room and will never be used

[Icetech]

Disregard, i have enough crap laying around as is:)

[Bob-I]

Speakers make a massive difference, probably one of the biggest for a single component.

BTW...I have two brand new Tonkers that if anyone wants them they can have them for the price of postage + $20 for my time to pack them. I hated them beyond belief, but others may have a use for them.

The first person to respond on this thread saying that they want them, gets them. I have no use for anything in my workshop that takes up room and will never be used

I sent you a PM. I like my Tonkers and I have a use for them.

Let me know what the shipping will be to 08844 and I'll paypal you the money.

[dogears]

I gave away 4 Tonkers!!! I hated them beyond belief too.

Speakers make a massive difference, probably one of the biggest for a single component.

BTW...I have two brand new Tonkers that if anyone wants them they can have them for the price of postage + $20 for my time to pack them. I hated them beyond belief, but others may have a use for them.

The first person to respond on this thread saying that they want them, gets them. I have no use for anything in my workshop that takes up room and will never be used

[glasman]

[quote="dogears"]I gave away 4 Tonkers!!! I hated them beyond belief too.

[quote]

They might be good in a Twin Reverb....... but not in a dumbly type amp. My 12L is going back in my combo.

As far as Marks comments on correctness of schematics, I would guess that virtually every Dumble built had one small tweak or another that made it a bit different. So a standard schematic with "correct" values would only reflect a very small group of amps (and maybe only one).

As you look over the years that Mr. Dumble built amps, you can see small changes in his voicing and component choices that reflected not only the players wishes but as also the music of the time.

Just my 2 cents.

Mark, BTW DAMN COOL AMP .......... Love that Suede.

Gary

[makrisp]

makrisp, I fully agree speakers are a BIG factor, but also agree with what Dogears has mentioned in the past...there is no correct schematic (or speaker), there is a correct baseline.

What speakers were you using before you decided on the EVs?
Should I consider swapping out my D112F JBLs and try the EV12L or Heritage G1265?

Dogears,
Probably an ambigious question, but Can they make that much of a difference? Unfortunately most speakers are not sold as a try before you buy basis.

On a side note, I can achieve a dumble type singing tone out of my clone, while my equally capable friend cannot using the same rig, same settings. He plays with a pick, I don't. He's 6' tall, I'm 5'7"
It's a whole series of variables from everything in between your fingers/pick to the speaker.

Bob,

It all depends on the circuit and sound you are searching for. If the amp is more of a marshall type crunch the celestion 65 may work better, but my suggestion is while finalizing the circuit design, decide which speaker you are going to employ and finalize/customize the circuit around the speaker/guitar/pickup/cable configuration. I do this all the time and get paid good bucks for this effort. Similar to what Mr. Dumble does for a living.

Listen to the amp, if you have too much bass and gain change the bypass caps, example: replace .1mf to .047 mf in the phase inverter, and move up into the input section.
Hope this helps!
Paul

[makrisp]

I gave away 4 Tonkers!!! I hated them beyond belief too.

They might be good in a Twin Reverb....... but not in a dumbly type amp. My 12L is going back in my combo.

As far as Marks comments on correctness of schematics, I would guess that virtually every Dumble built had one small tweak or another that made it a bit different. So a standard schematic with "correct" values would only reflect a very small group of amps (and maybe only one).

As you look over the years that Mr. Dumble built amps, you can see small changes in his voicing and component choices that reflected not only the players wishes but as also the music of the time.

Just my 2 cents.

Mark, BTW DAMN COOL AMP .......... Love that Suede.

Gary

Gary,
Mr. Dumble was a very clever man from what I have seen in his amps. There are some basic good schematics to start from, and then the customizing should begin. Design it around your ears and what you enjoy, and forget about recordings, as they will never allow a true impression of the tone. You have to play and listen to a Dumble.
A Dumble is very much alive and highly sensitive amp.

Thanks for the compliment. Whenever you are in Boston, contact me and you can play your heart out w/ my amp.

Paul