My 5F10 Harvard Goes To The TAG Cotillion

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rp
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My 5F10 Harvard Goes To The TAG Cotillion

Post by rp »

This has been up and running for a bit. Worked perfect right off the bat except for that one problem with consecutive bad input jacks that kept me busy for a couple hours. 3rd amp in a row that fired up fine. I think I've become so scared to screw up and wind up with a daunting bug that I quintuple check everything now. Then go to bed and check once again the morning. Pays off.

I was going to wait till I cleaned up the two ugly dropping resistors in the bias circuit before posting pics, but it'll be awhile before I have a $130 to send to Mouser for the right value and a bunch of other stuff I need. Simply incredible how .50¢ here $2.00 there adds up to $130 for a handful of little parts. What's the world coming to? I gotta stop this amp thing, when does the DIY jones wear off?

http://picasaweb.google.com/10412328569 ... directlink

So, dead silent except for the nice tube rush, the ptp keeps working well for me. Bright, immediate, and snappy and I really think the ptp is part of this. I started out intending to use a board and lined the tubes up straight across the back, then didn't feel like making the board. So the terminal strips wound up laid out like a board with ptp off of them. It really would have been better to do it true ptp with the tubes laid out like a Matchless with V1 near the pots and V2 btwn V1 and the output tubes, that way I could have avoided the one shielded run from front to back. But it's silent and works great so I'm satisfied. The OT secondary is a little ugly sticking up as it is but it's a reused tranny with short leads and it's also a good way to keep it away from the low level wires.

The PT is the TDS/West unit as I need euro taps, and if the Harvard was dud I'd have a PT I wanted. Bias is off the HT Marshall style, I needed 330K as the dropping resistor to get the right range. Plates are 330V, bias -24, 25mA current. I was hoping to hit ~300V like the schematic but I guess the TDS at 285V was a touch too high. I will try the tubes at 35mA which will drop the plate V but wanted to try it cooler first as I believe Fender would have shipped this at less than 70%. The rest of the voltages are practically spot on to the schematic. BTW my 2nd TDS PT - very very cool running. Very nice.

Sounds divine - really. Absolutely great tweed Fender copy. I only used modern parts in the power string and the bias, tubes and all the coupling capacitors and resistors are 40-60 years old stuff I had stashed, and it's rock solid. Caps were all in close spec and apparently not leaking :D The speaker is an old Canadian EMC from the 60s I had saved up for 20 years waiting for something special. All I'm missing is an old domino mica cap at 500pf. Anyone???

People here were curious about the Tungstan 10 (Weber 10A125-O?). I kept high hopes but was suspicious of the smooth undoped cone, and I thought it was a dud here - glad I got it used. It's warm, sweet, twangy at lower volumes but breaks up much too quickly and the distortion is fuzzy/buzzy and monolithic, ie the breakup sounds the same from 4-10 - just gets louder. It doesn't have that nice point of getting it's hair up before it distorts, it just distorts. The old Canadian EMC Jensen (C10Q?) sounds every bit as sweet but breaks up more progressively and sounds just perfect and vintage here. I think I just prefer the snap of ceramics too. I'm scared to blow it, but the sweet spot on this amp is around 10-11 o'clock just when it starts to get some bite and hair on it and you can make it go from clean and sweet to hard and biting just with pick attack. I got a 5E3 if I want to make a big racket. Since the old lady next door yelled at me waving a butter knife I haven't had a chance to test the head flat out through a bigger cab with a G12H30 Anni, but I tried it quickly at a medium volume and can already hear that it'll crank like a tweed fixed bias fender.

The Harvard doesn't sound anything like a 5E3, it sounds like a little version of my 5F6A. If memory serves it sounds like a Brown Deluxe/Princeton. It's been a while since I played a small fixed bias amp - it's great. For those people who think the 5E3 is too dirty and out of control this may be just the tight twangy little amp for you. Might be better to just build a Harvard than go chasing your tail modding a 5E3.

I love the 3 inputs, they actually work and are useful, very Goldilocks. The Low really cleans it up and makes it mellow twangy and bouncy, the High burns red hot, the Med is in btwn - nice. When trouble-shooting the bad jack, I tried clipping a 1 meg load resistor in place. I didn't spend too much time on it but it tamed it a touch. It's wilder without. I'd definitely keep the 3 inputs as is and I think you'll lose something unique if you go the standard 68K/68K-1M arrangement.

I tried David Root's suggestion of using a 6BF6 to clean it up (how can you not love a $3 NOS tube?) it works, but I can clean up just as well using the low input or the volume on the guitar. Also, 6AV6 is the way to go IMO but I haven't tried HBs yet. I started out with the 6AT6 and it was great, but it just pranced over the fence and ran off with the 6AV6. I found a web pict of a real 5F10 w/ the cab label showing 6AV6 printed (not over-written) so, near the end of the 5F10 some Bakersfield cowboy test-driver must have told Leo he liked it better hotter and they changed it. Wonder if Cropper had a 6AV6?

There's a good clip on YouTube of a vintage Harvard, that one is a little warmer, fuller, and deeper, mine's more tight and middy. I think the thinner bigger baffle on the original might be a part of that. The Marshall carcass has a very tight 1/2" thick baffle.

The amp sings with my G&L, twangy snarly heaven. I hit it out of the park with this one. The Victoria equivalent is $2000. And, they're not using cool old caps or tubes or speaker. The broken Marshall cost me $50, the TDS PT $120, add probably $150 in parts I was out of and a couple 7 pins from ebay, the rest I had. I feel proudly resourceful.

BTW face plate is just plexi over good gold art paper run through my printer with the best I could figure out using Word.

If I can find some friends with studio access or a place to make noise with some decent recording gear I'll try and do some clips.

If anyone sees anything not right please point out.
Thanks for all the help everyone.
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Last edited by rp on Sat Jan 08, 2011 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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David Root
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Re: My 5F10 Harvard Goes To The TAG Cotillion

Post by David Root »

Great name! Says it all!

I did not know that the 6AT6 was changed later on to a 6AV6. Some o' them good ol' Bakersfield boys must have been fairly advanced for their time!

The only other player I can think of who used distortion deliberately before it became fashionable was Elmore James, and he was a radio repairman by trade and built his own amps I believe.

I had to slow down the front end because I did not put in the three input jacks, just one. I should have thought of that but I'm not sure I would have had room to do it on the faceplate.
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rp
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Re: My 5F10 Harvard Goes To The TAG Cotillion

Post by rp »

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Normster
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Re: My 5F10 Harvard Goes To The TAG Cotillion

Post by Normster »

NICE!!!
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Dr-Joned
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Re: My 5F10 Harvard Goes To The TAG Cotillion

Post by Dr-Joned »

Very Nice !! You had me fooled with the faceplate. That is a good idea.
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Structo
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Re: My 5F10 Harvard Goes To The TAG Cotillion

Post by Structo »

Interesting amp.
I had never really looked at those before.

Strange about the 7 pin input an using a triode/ dual diode tube.

But since the amp only is using the triode that is pretty clever.

By the way, when I looked up those tubes, the 6AT6 is a 70 mu tube.

The 6AV6 is a 100 mu, so almost twice the gain.

The 6BF6 is a 16 mu tube.

http://www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/fran ... 6/6AT6.pdf
Tom

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C Moore
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Re: My 5F10 Harvard Goes To The TAG Cotillion

Post by C Moore »

Yeah, love the name also.....
I guess we all have the same problem when ordering parts. I have all kinds of caps and resistors. But when I need ONE part I do not have, it turns into a problem. I hate to order Just One of something. Then, as long as I am paying to ship a box......Looks like I only have ten 100k resistors, so I may as well get 40 more of those. Also low on 1 Meg, may as well get some 1/2 watt also. Looks like I will be needing some solder wick in the future, might a well get another 50 feet of that. Oh, looks like they are clearing out .022/400 caps for the "new model", may as well take advantage of that deal....
Next thing you know, that $1.18 resistor is a $69.00 order. Oh Well.
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martin manning
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Re: My 5F10 Harvard Goes To The TAG Cotillion

Post by martin manning »

That's great, rp! I'd really like to hear it, too.
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KT66
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Re: My 5F10 Harvard Goes To The TAG Cotillion

Post by KT66 »

rp wrote:
All I'm missing is an old domino mica cap at 500pf. Anyone???
Allenmey's site has some of those caps at 470 and 510pf : http://ampbuildersparts.com/store/index ... 20a&page=3
Ryan

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Re: My 5F10 Harvard Goes To The TAG Cotillion

Post by martin manning »

rp wrote:...Also, 6AV6 is the way to go IMO but I haven't tried HBs yet. I started out with the 6AT6 and it was great, but it just pranced over the fence and ran off with the 6AV6. I found a web pict of a real 5F10 w/ the cab label showing 6AV6 printed (not over-written) so, near the end of the 5F10 some Bakersfield cowboy test-driver must have told Leo he liked it better hotter and they changed it. Wonder if Cropper had a 6AV6?
A 6AV6 triode is the same as a 12AX7 triode (rp, mu, gm). Good to know for someone thinking about putting one of these together...
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rp
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Re: My 5F10 Harvard Goes To The TAG Cotillion

Post by rp »

David Root wrote: The only other player I can think of who used distortion deliberately before it became fashionable was Elmore James, and he was a radio repairman by trade and built his own amps I believe.
I think just playing drunk wild-ass slide on an acoustic with a soundhole deArmond through a poorman's little primitive amp while trying to be heard over a barroom full of frantic dancers and drunks probably accounted for Elmore's use of distortion, not that he didn't also dig the incredible tone from it all. I belive Elmore's heyday was 1952-1960. I have heard Chicago blues 1945-1950 with distortion, again I think the above applies. I have some just postwar Howling Wolf with Ike Turner on piano were someone (Willie Johnson?) is making a hell of a racket on guitar. Actually everyone is making a racket on everything - even the mic is holding on for dear life under the Wolf's voice - sounds insane! After at least a dozen beers and a couple shots of whiskey it sounds like God! (Been a sad fair while since I done that.) Can you even imagine how much insane fun it must have been playing like this in the 1940s? If I had a time machine first place I'd set the dial would be Chicago, South Side, late 40s, after that I'll check out ancient Rome and the dinosaurs...

Those Bakersfield cats were the voice of Fender. It's my understanding Leo was a humble man, and nothing left the factory without first passing muster with his musicians/clients - the people that mattered. And he had the best tonemeister test-pilots around. Those Okie hillbillie guitarists might have worn goofy suits, sported standard issue buzz cuts, and played as stone still as a statue but they were every bit as over the top as those guys in Chicago.
Structo wrote: By the way, when I looked up those tubes, the 6AT6 is a 70 mu tube. The 6AV6 is a 100 mu, so almost twice the gain.
So mu is not a linear scale? I guess 'cause the ear isn't. Good to know this.
KT66 wrote:Allenmey's site has some of those caps at 470 and 510pf : http://ampbuildersparts.com/store/index ... 20a&page=3
!!! Thanks! These are real right, not goofy (Allesandro?) repros with a modern cap dressed in a retro case?
martin manning wrote:A 6AV6 triode is the same as a 12AX7 triode (rp, mu, gm). Good to know for someone thinking about putting one of these together...
In my tweed clones, and the real 5E3 I had, I always prefer the lower mu in V1 - 12AY7. The 5E3 is just too out of control with a 12aX7 for me. I find it and the 5F6A still do the live at leeds thing fine with the 12Ay7 but I have more usuable range with the lower mu. But so far on the 5F10 I like the 6AV6. Might be the linear vol pot on this amp, it seems almost as clean with the 6AV6 just more alive/responsive w/ more hair and bite. I never played any type of Express, but it might be a bit of that quality.

This is a great circuit but I'm nor sure it's much different from a Brown Princeton or Deluxe. I like the 3 inputs and the fact it doesn't have vibrato.

Thanks for the compliments :D
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martin manning
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Re: My 5F10 Harvard Goes To The TAG Cotillion

Post by martin manning »

rp wrote:
Structo wrote: By the way, when I looked up those tubes, the 6AT6 is a 70 mu tube. The 6AV6 is a 100 mu, so almost twice the gain.
So mu is not a linear scale? I guess 'cause the ear isn't. Good to know this.
No, gain goes with mu. Net gain from a 100 mu is about 43% more than a 70, or +3.1 dB.
rp wrote:This is a great circuit but I'm nor sure it's much different from a Brown Princeton or Deluxe. I like the 3 inputs and the fact it doesn't have vibrato.
I just made that comparison! The basic 5F11 is virtually identical to a 6G2 Princeton, except for the power supply. The Princeton has 30-30-30 filter caps where the 5F10 has 16-16-16. The Princeton has 1k and 10k dropping resistors, where the 5F11 has 470 and 22k, and higher voltages on the pre-amp plates. Don't know about any differences in the PT and OT, but the B+ on the schematics is within 10V (3%).
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Re: My 5F10 Harvard Goes To The TAG Cotillion

Post by billyz »

Nice looking build. I like the cap and resistor choices. Good use of the little Marshall cab. Cool Speakers too. Bet it sounds very good.

It would really warm up if you had a 3/8ply baffle and back panels. But I bet the cab body is Particle board and thick too.
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rp
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Re: My 5F10 Harvard Goes To The TAG Cotillion

Post by rp »

Thanks for the thumbs up Billy.

3/8" baffle might be in it's future now that it turned out so nice. I've gotten better on getting grill cloth on square and tight (tip: buy canvas pliers) and no longer hate doing it as much. The back panels matter too? Dang, I guess everything matters. This Marshall is from the 80s, it's still ply and it's finger jointed. I pulled back some of the the tolex to make sure when I came across it. Not pine but at least it's not particle board. Back panels are MDF. If anyone else tries these cabs the real downer is the non-welded corners on the chassis. First thing I did was hit these with blobs of epoxy.
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