Happy New Year - Heyboer vs. Pacific voltages

[dartanion]

Thanks for the clarification Allyn.

[rhinson]

You cannot order a Marshall replacement transformer directly from Marshall's line card from whomever is making their transformers. Not gonna happen.

I don't know the full story, but I think Allyn was able to get Pacifics in the first place as he has done a lot of service work on real Wrecks. I wouldn't doubt that a transformer or 2 needed replacement.

The specs of the transformers have been posted here numerous times. There is no secret about that, or this whole conversation wouldn't be happening. Moose's spec'd, Heyboer built transformers and the Pacifics are correct. What Moose and Allyn have done for the forumites here is allow them to buy these at a discount rate financed out of their own pockets. If they decide to not do this anymore, that is their decision. I guess the punishment for not working through these guys is that you'll pay more for single sets or onesy-twosy orders direct from the mfgr.

Now, if you want to design your own transformers based on the TW specs, go for it. No one is stopping you.

The whole point of this thread is about which transformers are correct. It's been said ad nauseum that both the Heyboer and Pacific TW transformers are correct. Where and how you get them is problematic though. I guess there should be a few approved vendors appointed if this continues to be an issue.

It reminds me of Tommy Boy. "You can get a good look at a T-bone by sticking your head up the cow's ass, but wouldn't you rather take the butcher's word for it?"

On the T-bone, yes.

Don't get me wrong I appreciate all the help that has been given to myself and everyone here at AG. I have bought tranny's from both Moose and Allyn and I am just happy to be able to obtain these parts that are considered "proper" specs. for a resonable price.

But I have to admit I am a avid reader here and I still was somewhat confused on the issue of which specs were proper. As a person who loves building these amps and the sound of these amps, I want to get as close to the proper formula as possible.

Not long ago there was a thread on this exact subject which was I believe was the thread by rhinson which addressed the Pacific 280-250-0-250-280 as being correct for an Express build to which Allyn replied "the proper rating for an Express is 300-260-0-260-300". I also remember a reference to the fact that the K&M Tranny's were not proper and that Allyn's were run off of a more recent line card then the K&M version. If I read that wrong somewhere than please correct me. I just didn't think RJ was out of line in trying to clarify that his tranny's were a proper spec.

And you are way too fast to answer Dartanian. I re-thought my original post and edited within 5 min. as I felt like it was a little too harsh in my wording. Then I realized you had already replied. sorry for the confusion.

https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... sc&start=0

[dartanion]

Thanks for the link Robert, and for sharing your vast knowledge of transformers.

As far as actual performance and accuracy of voltages, I seem to recall a lengthy discussion on variations in voltages using the "same" spec iron and equating back to a standard wall voltage. The range was pretty wide from around 415V to 365V B+, which seemed acceptable for an Express. All of mine have been in the 390V to 405V range, but it doesn't surprise me that there are outliers for whatever reason. I would believe it to be normal acceptable manufacturing tolerance and within whatever spec the manufacturer is held to deliver. If they are held to a low standard, expect wide variance.

Another thing to consider, you are going to have varying wall voltages where ever you play the amp. Even different parts of my house have different wall voltages. Check the wall circuit at your next gig or rehearsal. We rehearse at my singer's house and his voltages are always way low as his service is old and maybe 100A. Possibly less. Amps sound different, and some SS devices with finicky power protection go into protection mode. His first PA (Yamaha something) flaked out constantly like that.

[Allynmey]

Looking back at Bob's link and reading through this thread, One thing stands out. Heyboer and Pacific Express trannys spec out at 300V/260V secondaries at 120V. My part from Pacific is the same. The only one That is listed differently is the K&M part. has anyone measured one of those to see the atual secondary? If it is 280V/250V this would lend more strength to Ken's statemnts that these are not the correct transformers and K&M ordered the wrong KF part.

My contention all along has been that the proper Express/Liverpool PT voltages are 300V-260V-0V-260V-300V.

I think RJ's test has shown that to be true. RHinson, Moose, and Brian Wallace have done more tranny research with regards to TW's than all of us put together if memory serves me right.

On a side note, RJ and I spent the last hour on the phone clearing up some misconceptions and clarifying our positions on some the remarks made by me and others. I think this will go a long way to relieve some nagging issues on the forum. Thanks for your help RJ. I also want to clarify that it was not RJ I was posting about in my original post about someone trying to steal an original tranny design from Pacific. I should have punctuated better...It was late...sorry.

[ckpop]

Allyn,

Thanks for the clarification also which I am sure many were not aware of. I think many were under the impression when a linecard was mentioned that most assumed you were talking about kens original transformer #'s

I understand if someone tried get your number and ordered from a current design transformer, that is wrong. It's no different then then trying to order a de young transformer around soldano.

keep up the good work Allyn

[funkmeblue]

according to Ken's interview in Dave Hunter's book, the heyboer's were ordered from the wrong line card a 40 watt for some hifi.....and he was pissed that two rock was able to order the pacific's. There new sales guy screwed up and they nofified Ken of the mistake. This leaves me to believe the pacific's are correct and the original heyboer we were using with the 5.2k was wrong.....wrong line card.......I beleive they have gotten it right now.

[paulster]

I'll just add to Allyn's comment that Pacific wouldn't have released Ken's line card transformers to the general public were it not for the fact that Ken passed and the proprietary nature of the transformers disappeared at this point.

Heyboer will similarly respect the proprietary nature of individuals' or corporation's line cards.

The Two Rock thing was apparently the supplier getting conned into releasing the information, believing it was for Ken.

I'll further add that both companies make exceptional transformers for Wreck builds and you can't go wrong with either. I use both depending on the application.

[Jana]

My comments after reading this thread, for what it's worth, is that this just reinforces the notion that it is a long, cold winter and a TAG kegger/jam session is probably needed when spring comes.

[Zippy]

On a side note, RJ and I spent the last hour on the phone clearing up some misconceptions and clarifying our positions on some the remarks made by me and others. I think this will go a long way to relieve some nagging issues on the forum. Thanks for your help RJ. I also want to clarify that it was not RJ I was posting about in my original post about someone trying to steal an original tranny design from Pacific. I should have punctuated better...It was late...sorry.

Thanks for clarifying that RJ was NOT the bad actor. I know him personally and regard him to always act in a thoughtful and considerate manner.

I think RJ's test has shown that to be true. RHinson, Moose, and Brian Wallace have done more tranny research with regards to TW's than all of us put together if memory serves me right.

Back to the opening post of this thread then... Is there something to be gained from load testing these similar transformers to see how they respond?

I, for one, am curious to learn whether PTs, wound to similar voltages and current ratings, have the same V vs load characteristics.

Or is this something that we already "know" and it has just been buried in the corporate memory?

Cheers!

[rhinson]

On a side note, RJ and I spent the last hour on the phone clearing up some misconceptions and clarifying our positions on some the remarks made by me and others. I think this will go a long way to relieve some nagging issues on the forum. Thanks for your help RJ. I also want to clarify that it was not RJ I was posting about in my original post about someone trying to steal an original tranny design from Pacific. I should have punctuated better...It was late...sorry.

Thanks for clarifying that RJ was NOT the bad actor. I know him personally and regard him to always act in a thoughtful and considerate manner.

I think RJ's test has shown that to be true. RHinson, Moose, and Brian Wallace have done more tranny research with regards to TW's than all of us put together if memory serves me right.

Back to the opening post of this thread then... Is there something to be gained from load testing these similar transformers to see how they respond?

I, for one, am curious to learn whether PTs, wound to similar voltages and current ratings, have the same V vs load characteristics.

Or is this something that we already "know" and it has just been buried in the corporate memory?

Cheers!

since a 300ma hv sec rating is pretty much overkill for a 2-el34 class ab amp, i'd say it'd be a moot point in this instance. rh

[gearhead]

This leaves me to believe the pacific's are correct and the original heyboer we were using with the 5.2k was wrong.....wrong line card.......I beleive they have gotten it right now.

If you mean the Heyboer OTs in use for the last three years or so, (Toneslut Heyboers), those are correct. He did alter the laminate mix a year+ ago.

[angelodp]

While the proprietary issues are important and I suppose will continue to be discussed, I can say that the Rocket amp I built from rj with the VVR and the airbrake all combine to be an iconic amp. Truly great tone. I have had great support from so many guys here that I do think we can say that this is a one of kind site and may well sustain the art of amp building for the ages.

Ron you are a prince for what you do. RJ you are an explorer and artist.

Just my 2 cents.

[Ron Worley]

Ange, you're very welcome. Glad that it is useful stuff, but the paycheck that comes with it is lousy!

[RJ Guitars]

Thank you Ange...

OK, now that the furor has subsided a bit, I'll say just a word about line cards and transformer companies. The parts I stock and sell from both vendors are "Open" part numbers. This means that anyone can order and re-sell these same parts without breaking the rules. As a matter of fact, several of us use common part numbers and you can buy the same products I sell from a handful of other resellers or directly from Heyboer or Pacific.

Ultimately we all owe a kind word to Rob Hinson. He did come up with a lot of the transformer specifications we have come to know and he chose not to protect his part numbers and specifications, he gave them to all of us to use and he did not have to do that... thank you Rob!

I like the thought of going back to amp building... forgive me if I color outside the lines. I appreciate what others do what they have done. My interpretation of honoring Ken Fischer may not be perfectly aligned with other folks, but he still commands a great deal of respect from me.

rj

[Jana]

"...if I color outside the lines."

This is, in my opinion, the honor that KF would want.


Jana--who has never built a clone but prefers to explore past the boundaries.