Bit diff Lightning clone: observations criticisms welcome

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rp
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Bit diff Lightning clone: observations criticisms welcome

Post by rp »

Finished my Lightning clone. If I hadn't forgotten to ground the input it would have fired right up, first time :-) My voltages are identical to the Spitfire schematic - Nice for a change! The ground thing freaked me out (no self confidence) and I took picts and photo-shopped tags for a desperate help post. The next day, before embarrassing myself on Ampgarage I went back in and found the missing ground. So now I still got a nicely tagged picture show of my amp for you all. BTW this was built in a chassis that had been an AC10 clone that I never liked, which kinda forced my layout.

http://picasaweb.google.com/ardpan/Matc ... directlink

Any criticisms or suggestions? Anyone want talk me out of doing this crazy, time consuming p-to-p madness?

I started tinkering in the mid 80s when you had to do everything from scratch and it was real hard to source stuff. Had a girlfriend in Montreal where I'd grab pawnshop Traynors for $50-$100 US for the cab, chassis, xformers and mustards. Found Keystone in Queens and took the subway out there to get perf board and turrets. Spent hours upon hours making beautiful looking boards and wire layouts Hiwatt style - crazy anal stuff. After all that my amps would usually squeal, hum & oscillate. Big bummer for a sophomore. No internet for help. I hit up some NYC techs for advice, one told me that the safest bet is to go point to point, and he showed me an opened DC-30. So I tried that and the amp, 5F6A, fired right up and sounded insane. So I stuck with the narrow Bud box, tight point to point thing where I literally layout the schematic and my only wires are in the power supply string, grounds to the buss bar from the pots and filter caps to the stage location nearest the bar, not much else. Built 6 tube amps over the years this way all have been transistor silent! Only sound is lovely mild carbon comp resistor tube rush. Just did a 5F1 that was so quiet I spent 45 minutes troubleshooting on start up cause I thought it wasn't making sound. I had only had my ear 2' away and didn't even hear tube rush. Finally, desperately, put my ear right against the grill cloth and realized it was working. It was a 20W 8" too, not a 100W 12"!

But I'm seriously thinking of calling my idiosyncratic point-to-point thing quits and start using tag/turret boards. They are readily available for just about every clone I'd want to make, if I get into poop I have the internet to go for help now. I can stop making my own cabinets from scratch, which in the end cost as much as buying from Mojo.

But I also like marching to my own drummer and avoid the kit / paint by numbers thing that everyone else does. I LOVE it when a ptp layout just falls into place perfectly like God was guiding it - No need to extend anything: resistor leads, cap leads, no extra lugs, no shielded wires, just as tight as the schematic - just flows from lug to lug stage to stage.

But it's such a damn big %$#@ bear to troubleshoot and next to impossible to mod or upgrade. Sometimes to change a resistor or cap I have to undo five connections to get at it (phase inverters are hell p-to-p) often I have to trash some nice carb-comps, sometimes I break a socket lug. The hassle keeps me from tweaking and learning. And, I would never sell one of my amps to anyone as they are just to big a pain in the ass for any tech to fix down the road. I don't want anyone cursing my name to hell!

So, should I stay or should I go?
bigsmitty
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Re: Bit diff Lightning clone: observations criticisms welcome

Post by bigsmitty »

How did you get the 5f1 so quiet? How did you ground the heaters?
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M Fowler
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Re: Bit diff Lightning clone: observations criticisms welcome

Post by M Fowler »

Looked great from what I could see. I had problems viewing during lunch break at work (blocked) some pictures. I'll look all the pictures tonight at home.

I enjoy building PTP amps but I also enjoy building with boards as well. I mostly do the PTP with octal preamps it seems. :) So far a Champ, 5b6 Bassman and Gibson EH150. Plan to do more small chassis PTP builts into 12x6x2 to keep things close and tidy. I like the cage amp look, I need to find some old PA chassis to play with.

As far as should you stay or should you go :?: I would do a little of each style.

Mark

Links to the three amps I listed
https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... highlight=

https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... highlight=

https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... c&start=15
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rp
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Re: Bit diff Lightning clone: observations criticisms welcome

Post by rp »

bigsmitty wrote:How did you get the 5f1 so quiet? How did you ground the heaters?
A pict is worth a thousand words, especially to an idiot-savant like me. I'll post one here in a bit. I'm embarrassed to show this one. It's so tight in the chassis I can barely get an f'ing probe in there. Good help I ever need to swap something. BRB.
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rp
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Re: Bit diff Lightning clone: observations criticisms welcome

Post by rp »

bigsmitty wrote:How did you get the 5f1 so quiet? How did you ground the heaters?
Nothing exotic I can't get my head around that stuff yet, just 100 ohm resistors no ct. In retrospect I think that 8" MOD is very inefficient for a $20 8, but it's still the quietest champ I ever heard. I'm not trying to get the amps super silent, as soon as you plug in a guitar they'll make plenty of noise anyway, I'm just trying to get rid of big trouble noise but they all come out super-silent too. I'll link to champ picture later this evening.
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Structo
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Re: Bit diff Lightning clone: observations criticisms welcome

Post by Structo »

Yeah point to point can be fun but a pain in the rear to troubleshoot unless you built it.
I had a Danelectro DM-25 here a while back and it was a pain to trace the circuit because of the way the components were connected.
You might expect cap A to be wired to pin 6 but no, a bit further down the amp you discover a wire leading back that way.
Luckily not much was wrong with it so I just recapped it and installed a three prong cord.

I much prefer turret or eyelet boards laid out nicely and don't even get me started on modern PCB amps.......
Tom

Don't let that smoke out!
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Phil_S
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Re: Bit diff Lightning clone: observations criticisms welcome

Post by Phil_S »

Nice work, no kidding. I'm not sure a purist would call it PTP, though, because you cheated and used terminal strips. Still, real nice work.

It occurs to me that one of the big advantages of this style is that you can pack it into a much smaller chassis.

Not sure a muti-channel high gain monster would be happy with that sort of construction, but I don't see where that's any sort of thing to concern yourself with. FWIW, I'd say, if that works for you, keep doing it.
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rp
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Re: Bit diff Lightning clone: observations criticisms welcome

Post by rp »

bigsmitty wrote:How did you get the 5f1 so quiet? How did you ground the heaters?
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/tL ... directlink

This amp should have been done with a board, anything with the tubes opposite the pots might as well be done with a board I've learned. Total PITA to work on but it's silly quite. Sounds just like a 5F1 should but I must find a louder speaker than the MOD. The tolex two tone corner look I stole from some pics on the internet. My apologies whoever you are, but consider it a compliment rather than theft. Not sure I still dig the red and white thing. I was thinking a pop '60s look. Maybe one day someone from Switzerland will buy it, or a hospital.
Last edited by rp on Fri Jul 30, 2010 7:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Phil_S
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Re: Bit diff Lightning clone: observations criticisms welcome

Post by Phil_S »

No comment on the tolex :twisted:

I've got a narrow chassis and have been turning over in my mind just how to deal with building something inside it. Those pictures really were helpful to see. Thanks.
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rp
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Re: Bit diff Lightning clone: observations criticisms welcome

Post by rp »

M Fowler wrote: I mostly do the PTP with octal preamps it seems. :) So far a Champ, 5b6 Bassman and Gibson EH150.

https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... c&start=15
You built a EH150! Dude!

I've been sitting on some RCA and Brimar coke bottle 6L6Gs for 20 years that need a project, I was going to post here for suggestions. I might have to pick your brain on this in the future but for now, was it worth it beyond the coolness factor, i.e. does it have any practical sonic value in 2010? One trick pony? What speaker did you/client choose? I'm itching to do something jazzy with 15" in a Hammond hifi type box and cage to show off the coke bottles.

Thanks for the compliment BTW. I've been putting the lightning through it's paces, sounds fantastic - no negatives anywhere so far. Best thing I ever built, one of the best amps I ever played through and i don't even have any proper speakers for it yet. There's a commonality I hear in amps I layout this way, clear and crisp - bright but in a good way, so maybe I should stick to it. I might post my observations in a few more days.

-rp
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M Fowler
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Re: Bit diff Lightning clone: observations criticisms welcome

Post by M Fowler »

RP,

I built the Spitfire and Lightning with turret boards easier :D

The Gibson EH150 is a great bass toned amp (not too low though) and the octal tubes really get a tone one is not used to in a 12AX7 world. This one is the newer style EH150. But if you hold on my friend Colossal is building a great looking EH150 and that will be worth taking a look at.

The EH150 has a great gainy channel that has a voltage divider circuit that needs to be adjusted once built as it gets way too much gain and will oscilate if you don't adjust the resistors there. Running Celestion G12-100T or Celestion 12H30. I want to get a EVM12L or similiar to work with this more of a jazz tone amp.

Mark
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KellyBass
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Re: Bit diff Lightning clone: observations criticisms welcome

Post by KellyBass »

[quote="Phil_S"]Nice work, no kidding. I'm not sure a purist would call it PTP, though, because you cheated and used terminal strips. Still, real nice work.

Using terminal strips isn't considered point to point? I'm something of a novice at electronics and maybe I've been using the wrong terminology to describe my work. I've got an antique electronics store in my town and they have a fantastic selection of ol' school terminal cinches. I use them a lot in my amps, but I've always considered (and advertised) them to be PTP.
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rp
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Mid control observations

Post by rp »

In case anyone's interested I thought I'd post my observations on adding a mid pot.

Didn't like it. I tried both ways as a rheostat and the Marshall/Fender style with a 25K. I noticed from the TW schematics that KF tried the two ways of doing the mid too.

First way - just replaced the 10K mid resistor w/ a 25K pot, I liked this ok as it kept the Matchless Vox sound but I wasn't sure it added anything really necessary. I wasn't too experienced/comfortable w/ the Vox interactive thing anyway and this just added some confusion. The mid made a bright dynamic amp even more so, but making it harder sounding. I didn't allow it to scoop too much as I had a 5.6k to ground.

The Fender 5F6A way made it sound like a Fender, this really was weird and i didn't like it at all, but I understood it better as it was more straight fwd than the Vox interactive thing.

I believe nothing here changes the basic eq parameters (other than the mid boost/cut) just the way the player interacts with the controls and all the stock tone settings are still there with either mod. I can see someone being happy with any of the three ways. Me, I preferred stock, but I hate lots of knobs, don't even like MVs (this is my first amp ever with an MV).

I just tried the options for a few hours in an afternoon, best would have been to live with each for a few days/weeks to learn it but I wanted to put the Lightning to bed.

In the end I opted for a Bright switch (51/100/180pf) as I still had a 5th hole to fill up. This didn't knock me out either. Lightning is bright as hell, but anything less than 180pf kills the sparkle and life IMO. The switch will stay, and it might prove useful as I play with it more.

Reaffirms once again that when messing with classic, famous, time proven designs it's best to leave well enough alone.

I never played a real lighting but did a DC30 and heard plenty of Matchless, and it sure sounds right. This is the first amp that I hit the nail on the head on. I think it's having access to the West/TDI xformers and having the same voltages as the real thing.

The Lightning is a hell of an amp. Now I want a Spitfire.

I updated the pics with some finished photos (except for faceplate)
PCollen
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Re: Bit diff Lightning clone: observations criticisms welcome

Post by PCollen »

rp wrote: http://picasaweb.google.com/ardpan/5F1C ... directlink

This amp should have been done with a board, ...
Hindsight is always 20/20. I commend you on your patience to build such a layout.
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rp
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Re: Bit diff Lightning clone: observations criticisms welcome

Post by rp »

PCollen wrote:
rp wrote: http://picasaweb.google.com/ardpan/5F1C ... directlink

This amp should have been done with a board, ...
Hindsight is always 20/20. I commend you on your patience to build such a layout.
Not so much patience, once I realized what was happening I had no choice but to keep going - an other one of the problems with PTP.
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