#115 and overall bass response in other amps

[stratcat62]

I played Dumble #115 (standard OD, 100w with half power switch, pretty sure it was classic EQ based on sound, grey suede, 2x12 cab with EVM12S speakers) and had a question about overall bass in other Dumble amps/clones. I was using a Strat with the Dumble, which the amp did not seem to like very much. Some interesting things that really stood out to me about it were:

1. I couldn't get the clean channel to overdrive at all. Volume on 10, midrange cranked, dead clean, even in 50 watt mode. It got gritty with the PAB engaged, but otherwise crystal clean all the way up.
2. I know these amps are known for tight bass, but this amp had what seemed like no bass at all. The amount of bass on 10 was comparable to the amount of bass of my Twin Reverb on 3, but less flabby on the Dumble. It seemed to add content to the tone, but no overall "bassy-ness". Don't get me wrong, the lack of bass was nice, probably the coolest thing about the amp, especially on the OD channel - great sustain and no flab.

The reason I wanted to inquire about the bass content is because on several Ford recordings there seems to be a similar thing going on with the clean channel (ex. 'Hard to Please' and 'Strong Will To Live'). On the Fuchs ODS and Ceriatone OTS I've had the chance to play around with there seemed to be substantially more bass available. Having never played any other Dumbles, I'd like to know if the "lack of bass" was unique to this amp or something found in other Dumbles that builders are changing in their own amps.

[talbany]

Did you try this amp at the show in Annandale NOVA Sat..I couldn't make it
Could be a low plate w/ 5uf caps..Did you try it in Jazz mode?
Classic is different than Skyliner..

Tony

[Structo]

I know the mid cap and mid pot can play an important role in what guitar works best with the amp.
For humbuckers I tend to like a .01uF mid cap and the 250K mid pot.(Skyline)

On my D'lite I installed a switch that switches a .05uF in parallel with the .01uF resulting in .06uF.
At lower levels it is pretty subtle but at gig levels it is obvious how it changes the low mids.

But for more bass you would probably want to adjust the first stages bypass caps and or the couplers.

Another thing that can be played with is the input grid stopper.
Use a 22K for single coils and a 33K for humbuckers (depending on the output of the pickups of course.)

There are a lot of ways to tweak the tone in these amps which can be an exorcise in frustration, but once dialed in it is a very cool thing.

[hitchcaster]

maybe the amp needs some new PS caps... or is sick in some way? not working with strats is common though. not a lack of bass response though AFAIK

[Drumslinger]

so are any of the Dumbles Strat friendly stock?

[Structo]

Well that's the thing, there really is no such thing as a stock amp since Alexander built and tweaked or "tuned" each amp to the customer.

It would be cool to look inside a recording artist's ODS that uses primarily single coil strats to see what values or layout Alexander used to make the strat sound the best it could possibly sound.

I suppose it depended on how much he liked the player and how important it was to him to take the effort to make him sound as good as possible.
After all, the artists playing through his amps were his advertisement.
But sometimes scheduling might not have been conducive for the time it would take to tune the amp.

I think some of the orphan amps out there like at Lark or Ultrasound very well could have some sort of problem because I have heard from several people that have played Dumbles there that they said did not sound all that great.
Who knows what that would be. Anything from a dodgy tube to a bad component could make any amp sound like crap.

[Bob-I]

so are any of the Dumbles Strat friendly stock?

I've played Strats in several Dumble clones without as much as turning a knob and they sound great. Other's simply don't sound right with a Strat, I can't explain it.

I've only played one Dumble clone that had less bass than I expected. The owner liked it over the big bottom end on my amps, so each to his own. I didn't open the amp to examine it so I don't know why it was different.

[Max]

@stratcat62:

Here is an example of a 4th generation "classic" ODS that AFAIR has been fine tuned to be fed by an all original ’56 strat: http://www.gbase.com/files/store_images ... 2lf_so.jpg

The original owner asked Alexander to build an amp, which stays completely clean in its clean channel, even at high settings of the volume control.

This amp offered at gbase is the sister amp of #123, which has been built for the same musician. AFAIK both amps sound rather similar. A schematic of the preamp of #123 has been posted here: https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.php?p=56782#56782

As #123 was gooped at the time I had the chance to try it, I can’t say how this schematic was done and if it is correct. I liked #123 a lot with all kind of guitars.

Bass response:

Low bass frequencies have a rather long wavelength. Because of this the full bass volume is only audible in a certain distance and not if you stand only 10 feet away from the amp.

Dumble ODS amps have usually been built for the professional use in the studio and on stage in the context of a band and not for playing alone in a living room or a music shop. And in the studio and on stage a high low frequency content of the guitar sound is AFAIK not always the best approach to get a best overall sound quality, because there may be other instruments in the mix, like a bass guitar or a keyboard, that need this very space in the mix.

Bass response depends a lot on how and where you place the cabinet. The bass frequencies are usually more prominent in the "audience distance" as an example if you place a Dumble 2x12 on stage with its handle on top - like on this gbase picture - because the bass frequencies then are well reflected by the stage floor. To place the 2x12” in an upright position IMO gives less bass content and more high end and midrange content in the "audience distance".

If you like a higher low frequency content, then with a "classic" ODS you can engage the deep switch and then adjust the volume again for the same overall volume as without the deep switch.

@structo:

AFAIK the vast majority of the at least 250 ODS has been built either for strat players or for players who played with different kind of guitars. Just have a second look at the Dumble reference thread and count the number of single coil ODS players and of humbucker ODS players you find there.

@structo and hitchcaster:

IMO it has nothing to do with any dysfunctions in some ODS that players did not like them. In the contrary: I know really many players who have been completely disappointed after playing their first original and perfectly functional ODS because the tones they experienced were not anywhere near to what they knew from the records of their Dumble ODS heros.

This was indeed most often the case if I was present when players had their first "Dumble experience": I know only very few Dumble ODS amps that all who played them fell in love with immediately. The reason for that is IMO a complete but widespread misconception what a Dumble ODS is made for.

All the Dumble hype in the last twenty years did not start because the musicians and gear head community decided that they now urgently need the tone of Tom Verlaine, of Dean Parks, of Carlos Rios, of Carl Wilson, of Jackson Browne, of Danny Kortchmar, of Rick Vito, of Graham Nash and all the 250 other "usual" ODS players. No, most of them wanted the tone of Robben Ford and Larry Carlton and that started all the Dumble hype in the early 90ies when their prices began to skyrocket.

But a Dumble ODS is not made to provide a "Robben Ford tone" or "Larry Carlton tone" but to provide an experienced player with "his own tone". What an ODS does extremely well is to showcase all the tiny nuances in touch and technique and musical approach a player has to offer.

It is IMO just as with a Stradivarius violin or the best Steinway or Bösendorfer grand pianos. These first class instruments sound angelic in the hands of Jascha Heifetz or Mauricio Pollini. But to listen to a mediocre player playing such a first class instrument is often like listening to Vogone poetry, because all the faults and all the small fights with an unmastered technique are showcased that much by these instruments because exactly this is what they have been made for - to showcase nuances.

So I personally are no longer surprised at all that many players after playing a Dumble for the first time only shrug their shoulders and move on because it was not the Robben Ford, Larry Carlton or SRV tone what was propelled out of the speakers.

IMO no big surprise because the only thing that the Dumble does for Robben Ford and Larry Carlton is to give them one of the best tools I know of to put forth the emotions they feel in their hearts and souls and transport them to their audiences.

IMO this is one of the most important reasons why players are often very disappointed when they play an original ODS for the first time because they probably hoped it would provide them with the Robben Ford or SRV or David Lindley or whatever tone, but all they hear is their own tone, and perhaps for the first time really unveiled and naked.

Then IMO everyone must decide what he prefers, to pull the curtain full open with the help of the Dumble and learn to master his guitar as a tool to express his emotions or to close it again because he does not want to be confronted with his playing stripped to its very bones. My first Dumble experience 30 years ago was one of the most humbling experiences since I first took up an electric guitar, because I really thought of myself as a decent player. How wrong I was! And I am still very happy that may own decision after these horrible tones was not to mod the amp for more "sweetness" but to "mod" my playing technique.

Perhaps you remember the Guitar Player amp shootout in the early nineties, when they tested a Dumble and have been rather disappointed because it lacked all the sweetness they had hoped for and sounded that harsh and bright. They reported it would be great for "metal tones" because of this lacking sweetness and its harshness and brightness. This is precisely the kind of comment I often hear from players after their first ODS experience: Harsh, bright, no Robben Ford sound in it, unplayable.

My two cents based of course on my personal interpretations of my personal experiences and impressions.

Last but not least an example for the strat tone of an ODS (4th generation "classic"). The player starts to step out around 3:00 and then demonstrates the strat tones of his Dumble ODS from clean to scream: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQsayvE6_Pc

If you should like this strat tone, then here is the layout of such a 4th generation "classic" ODS: https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... 327#137327

Cheers,

Max

[boldaslove6789]

Well stated Max.

I think it is safe to assume that what style the player was greatly depended on the mods done to the amp and also if the amp was going to be used for more clean than overdriven guitar .

The ODS is capable of more useable tones than unusable with the features that most do contain. Most average players mask their guitar (IMO) and like Max stated these amps are very revealing but there is a great reward when you're used to how ODS's communicate with your guitar. Its almost like you have to re-teach yourself how to play the amp which in term makes you a better overall player (IMHO. This all of course greatly depends on how much time you spend with the amp. I think it is probably rare to gel with an amp instantaneously without spending time to learn how the overall amp responds.

[Bob-I]

It is IMO just as with a Stradivarius violin or the best Steinway or Bösendorfer grand pianos. These first class instruments sound angelic in the hands of Jascha Heifetz or Mauricio Pollini. But to listen to a mediocre player playing such a first class instrument is often like listening to Vogone poetry, because all the faults and all the small fights with an unmastered technique are showcased that much by these instruments because exactly this is what they have been made for - to showcase nuances.

Well put.

A few weeks ago at a gig, the singer asked if her friend could play a few songs using my guitar/amp, her friend is my friend so I said ok.

He played ok but when I talked to him later he told me he wanted more gain because the way my rig was set allowed him to hear all the little noises and glitches in his playing. Then he said he was more of a hi-gain Marshall guy than a Fender guy (I had a modded Bassman head on top of my Dumble clone for bright cleans but it was off at the time).

When I explained that he was playing through the Dumble his attitude completely changed. He said "now I understand why people say you have to play differently through a Dumble".

Another experience.

At the amp show a few years ago I was talking to another guitarist after we both left the Bludotone booth. He said he just couldn't play a Dumble type amp. I said you have to adjust your playing to the amp but once you do you'll love it. His response "I don't adjust my playing for equipment" Fortunately another guy overhead this and said "You mean you play a Strat exactly the way you play a Les Paul".

Good example, we all adjust our playing to the guitar, why not to the amp as well.

To me, my first experience playing a Dumble clone was like finding my home, I loved it from the first E chord. That doesn't mean I don't find value in other amps, in fact I almost always use 2 heads at gigs, the Dumble and the modded Bassman (Rocket preamp).

[M Fowler]

Max,

That was a good write-up thank you and it explains a lot of what I feel about my need to learn my guitars and learn my amps.

Mark

[Drumslinger]

Max,

Thanks so much for the insight. I have just finished up with my second D-Style build (still need to finish the cabinet which is already cut to size) and have repeatedly referred to #124 during the process. As this amp is for my nephew (strat player), who enjoys playing the blues, there will be some challenges on tweaking the amp after he has had some time to get familiar with the amp. He's currently playing through one of my bassman clones (5F6A) and enjoys it very much so the transition to the D-Style amp should be pretty good. I'll post some clips soon but here is a track of him playing in the family band (my 2 nephews and brother). IIRC the amp used was a Hot Rod Deluxe i modded.

[talbany]

"I don't adjust my playing for equipment"

Then perhaps the equipment is playing you!!

Right on Max!!

Tony

[Tonegeek]

There is no doubt you have to adapt your technique to the guitar and/or amp in front of you. Its like any relationship; you are initially attracted to a person, musical instrument, house, car or whatever based on certain criteria. But as the intimacy develops you see things you missed initially and must adapt to the particular personality of that which you are partners with, or look elsewhere. Rarely does something come into your life that does not require you to adjust something about yourself. Just leave the toilet seat up and see how that goes over with your spouse.

[Structo]

I don't notice a lot of bass in my 50 watt until I turn it up quite loud.

I agree that if you have your amp set up to sound great by itself, it probably won't blend or cut through the mix in a band.

Probably why Marshall's have done so well for years for lead work.

But I do like some low frequency grind when I am playing barre chords.

Ideally I wish the tone controls were a bit more dynamic in their range but to make that happen you would have to go with a much more active tone stack.