71$/hour

[Tubetwang]

United Auto Workers are making 71$ an hour against 49$ an hour for the Japanese manufacturers claims Mitch McConnell.

I'm a savvy guy ...and 71$ seems too high to work on a dud...

I'd give them 20$ no mass!

[dave g]

$71 an hour? Are you sure that's right? 140k a year?

What the hell am I doing in engineering at U of I...

That can't be right.

[Structo]

That number is for their total wage package.

That includes their health insurance, pension and any other union type deductions.

It comes out to around $28/hr which isn't too shabby for unskilled labor for the most part.

One of the issues I have is, I am in a union, I have to serve a 4 year apprenticeship before I can draw journeyman pay.

My wage package is around $60/hr and I get about $28 on my check.

The Big Three take somewhere in the neighborhood of 45 hours to build a car while the Japanese factories take just over 25 to complete one.

That and the wages make the US cars very expensive.

The Big 3 are going to have to restructure as well as re-tool for the future.
I for one don't want to bail them out and have them continue as they have in the past.

Remember when Lee Iaccoca took over Chrysler?

He paid himself $1 a year until they got that company back into the black.

[Tubetwang]

What Structo said...

Should of linked a source...

http://michellemalkin.com/2008/12/11/be ... o-bailout/

Not an easy decision mind you...

Ontario has vouched for the Big three ...Ouch...

It is bound to go worst before it gets any better...We'll have to suffer the next two years...They will be lean times folks...Cash-O-La and jobs will be scarce...So if you want to rock...now is the time...


As a side note...
In 1971 my old man came home with a brand new Datsun 510 4 door sedan...independant suspension...overhead cam...

Wait?!!!!!! From GM to Datsun?

Neighbours were laughing out loud...

In 1973 he popped a BMW 2002 Ti...sun roofed and posi-track...

My mom dumped her Parisienne and inherited the 510...

In 1976...i purchased the 2002.

Thight wheels.

[drhulsey]

United Auto Workers are making 71$ an hour...

I had heard from relatives and friends who work at the Corvette plant here that it was $75 including benefits. When my father-in-law worked holidays he got triple time That was about $80/hr wages
I wish I was smart enough to know what the right economic moves were in this situation I'm not sure even the "experts" know

[bnwitt]

Speaking as a family member of Ford Motor, I must remind everyone that the mentioned wage is an average wage. Some make less and some make way more. I happen to have a cousin who makes a $22 per hour wage for picking parts out of bins and putting them into little bags. He's near the bottom wage wise. The problem with the wages in the auto industry is that they aren't always commensurate with the skill level of the worker. The guy that cleans the toilets in the employee locker room shouldn't be making $20 per hour but he does because the union brings everyone in to the bargaining session. They can't afford to have any unhappy union members. Normal market driven wages mean nothing when the union controls things.

[Aurora]

Hi guys..
I've just been reading this thread with some interest.
I've also been following the "voters" thread with similar interest, as it does tell something about the political/social "state of mind", if you like.

Comparing wages between different countries is of course very difficult, as one also have to compare the average level and costs of living.

Here in Norway, we define something called an "average national income", often referred to as an average industrial workers wages,
Is there something comparable in the US, and if so how much?

If these numbers are correct, it seems that the overhead for pension, health care etc. is close to 200%.........???????
Over here , the thumbs rule for employers overhead expenses is around 30% atop of a persons salary.
- and I do know my figures, as I used to run a small co. aside for 4 years.

[skyboltone]

Speaking as a family member of Ford Motor, I must remind everyone that the mentioned wage is an average wage. Some make less and some make way more. I happen to have a cousin who makes a $22 per hour wage for picking parts out of bins and putting them into little bags. He's near the bottom wage wise. The problem with the wages in the auto industry is that they aren't always commensurate with the skill level of the worker. The guy that cleans the toilets in the employee locker room shouldn't be making $20 per hour but he does because the union brings everyone in to the bargaining session. They can't afford to have any unhappy union members. Normal market driven wages mean nothing when the union controls things.

This of course gets directly to the point.

I too am a lifelong union member in a skilled craft. Our apprenticeship is 5 years in length and the wage begins at about 30% of journeyman wage. Pension benefits don't begin to accrue until the second year, you can and will be tossed out during your apprenticeship if you don't tow the line.

You can't get the kind of benefits I get unless withholding your labor will bring true hardship to a company or association of companies. When workers are mostly unskilled, replacing them is not a problem, but this lack of a problem creates a real problem. Frequently when unskilled workers strike one sees jack booted thugs enforcing picket lines, or worse, companies hiring Pinkerton soldiers to gun down protesting workers. Having said all that, the UAW's best bargaining chip is that labor comprises only 10% of the cost of a car. Personally I think that means ten percent on the assembly floor and does not reflect the percentage of parts cost in labor from suppliers.

Something to reflect on......on site labor comprises less than 5% of the cost of a new home. In 1953 it was 55%. Where does the rest of the money go? Look at government fees for permits, environmental impact reports, public works connection fees, land acquisition costs boosted by requirements for road, school and services improvements.

It's not a simple problem with a simple solution. When was it, 1973 when congress forbade banks from excluding the wife's income when computing qualification? Somewhere in there. Anyway, the cost of housing doubled over the next few years. Seemed like a good idea at the time but the net effect on families wasn't good. As the associated costs of housing outlined above where added in to the price of homes, congress forced banks to lower qualification standards. Gotta pay for schools and roads somehow, right? The old guideline of 25% of gross income to housing had been replaced with 50% or 60% or even higher here in California. Not good.

I ain't smart enough to solve this one. Neither is Obama or anyone else for that matter. The current credit crises is emblematic of way bigger problems that go way deeper than over leveraging everybody.

The answer is really contained in two words in my view:

Want less.

[Structo]

Well our governments are quite different.
Yours I believe is what's called a constitutional monarchy.

Ours is a democratic republic.

So we don't do things the same way but there is a Federal minimum wage which is somewhere around $6.55 per hour.

Some states have a higher minimum wage.

So aside from labor unions, there isn't any guarantee what a wage will be.

Sometimes a employee can negotiate a higher salary or wage but most companies have pay scales for different departments from entry level to experienced employee wages.

[Aurora]

Yours I believe is what's called a constitutional monarchy.

As I believe you were responding to my post -
yes that is the correct term -
meaning in reality that our monarch ( as well as all the rest of them ) has no real power. The real power is always in the parliament, although the monarch can veto a bill, - but if the same bill is passed in the next election period ( 4yrs ), it is for real anyway.

[Ron Worley]

I had also heard that GM wraps $2000 around every car just to service the Union Pension obligations. That takes probably 5-7 margin (Profit) points off the top- and I bet they can't be running any better than high single digit net margins.

That and misaligned wages on both labor and management sides makes it pretty damn hard to be in the black. The only thing that was keeping them afloat prior to this year was easy low percentage loans and fairly strong consumer buying- in other words, it was the volume of very low margin cars that paid the bills.

They are soooo inefficient that once the volume dropped, there was no way to be profitable. Because of this, any bailout monies given without real concessions and changes in operating models only prolong the agony. If not, every cent of that will be down the drain and out of your pocket and mine.

2 of the big 3 are already dead, they just don't know it yet. Alan Mullaly, CEO of Ford, came from Boeing and produced the 777 aircraft on time and at a very profitable rate- with a VERY strong union labor force. And Ford is the only one of the 3 that has a decent chance. So it can be done, just not the same old way.

Rick Wagoner needs to go away, executive pay must be realigned with reality, inefficient process and shitty design standards eliminated.... and YES, Labor has to realign its pay to what the market will bear- as in the same as the very happy folks that work in the non-union (and southern) Honda, Toyota, VW, BMW, Audi, Hyundai plants here in the US.

Another important thing is that the amount of "Skilled" labor used in auto production these days is alarmingly low. Those who do a real apprenticeship to learn to be a Machinist, plumber, etc. are real tradesmen by definition and deserve a pay premium. But many of the folks on the lines in Detroit are not tradesmen- they are unskilled, uneducated folk who do a simple assembly job and are given the same inflated union pay. If I was a machinist, I'd be pissed....

The UAW has shown it's lack of understand of the glaring realities facing them by their refusal to play. Darwin had a theory about these things......

These are my opinions based on years in the Aerospace industry in both union and non union plants. Some will disagree, but that's OK- opinions are like assholes, everybody has one......

Ron

[bnwitt]

skyboltone you make some valid points. As a Facilities manager for 21 years I have managed both union and non union properties. I will say that all unions are not the same. And as such not all wage and benefit structures are the same. A few years back I managed a property where a union with experience in unskilled workers was the union of record. Because their voting base was made up of unskilled janitorial and utility workers, a dish washer made $11 per hour. Due to their inexperience in representing skilled trade workers an A/C technician made only $16 per hour. The going rate in the area for A/C techs at the time was $26 per hour. We had all of the dish washers we could use (they spent most of their time filing grievences though) and no A/C techs. I broke the union scale and paid my A/C techs $21 per hour(our benefits were great). This of course pissed off the dish washers.

In my opinion the day of the union is over. We needed them in the days when there were no laws to protect workers. Now you can sue the pants off of an employer if you want to so the point is moot. The market should drive wages in my opinion. In the example above, my guys could have made alot more money.

I do want to address the cost of labor for housing comment. In 1953 the workmen were swinging hammers and hand mixing concrete and grout. Not so today. Nail guns and other innovations have changed the speed of construction. On top of that almost every thing is pre-fabbed not hand created. Pre cutt 88" studs, moldings etc.... Heck, my house has styrofoam accents on the exterior under the stucco. I know this cause my kids have knocked chunks out of them.

[Tubetwang]

I'd also bet on Ford...but i do not want to bet...

China and India will eventually start to dump affordable cars that folks will buy for very low greens...money talk's.. http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/co ... 031064.htm

I would not want to be the one to decide on the faith of the big three... but if pressed to push a button...i'd...huh...gulp...er...i would maybe bail Ford...or maybe get them to go bankrupt and start with a clean slate...if that is possible...

Dylan was right...Time's are changing fast...

[bnwitt]

A few years back, Ford told it's employees that it would not allow on site employee parking at the main office of any non-Ford automobiles. You work here, you don't drive Japanese buddy.

[Structo]

Well now you are in my area of expertise.

As a plasterer with 30 years experience and the last 16 years belonging to a union I can say a union has it's place.
When I was non union I made $12/hr with no retirement or health insurance.
When you're young and dumb you don't think of your future or ever falling ill.
But as I approached 36 years old I realized I didn't have a thing to show for the 14 years I had worked in my trade. Add that and an argument with the owner of the company I was with was all it took to sign up with the union.
Now I have good health benefits and a pension to look forward to when I retire.

If private non union companies provided these things, I agree, there would be no need for unions. But I think it is almost criminal to work somebody in a hard physical trade like plastering for 30 or more years and not have anything at the end for them other than the measly social security which may or not be there when they retire.


Especially in construction oriented trades where there is actual physical wear on ones body from the work performed.

I have had shoulder surgery as a result of my work and know many others who have had other surgeries that can be blamed on the type of work we do.

Unions (at least in my area) have an expected level of performance of quality as well as performance.

On large commercial jobs such as a high rise office building, first a company has to man the job. Pulling hires from a union hall makes it possible for even smaller companies to complete a project of that scope.
And with the hiring of journeymen, you have some level of confidence that everybody is familiar with the industry standards that each trade demands.

My trade has a 4 year apprenticeship program before being paid full journeyman wages.

Out craft is still 95% hand applied with the exception that some companies use a pump and spray the stucco onto the lath, but it is still hand rodded and floated. The finish is almost always hand applied as well.
Interior plastering is 100% hand applied in my area on commercial as well as residential plastering.

As far as that stupid styrofoam crap that was being used quite a bit a few years ago. Most in my trade thought it was a terrible product as evidenced by how many plasterers put it on their own homes.

It's called EFIS, External Foam Insulation System.

The problem that in any climate the system pretty much relied on caulking to prevent water intrusion into the exterior walls. After many failures, the owners of buildings this system was used on started suing contractors for the water invasion and mold problems resulting from the moisture.

The truth to be known, a lot of it was hype perpetrated by lawyers who saw there was a buck to be made by suing contractors.
Any exterior siding has a certain amount of moisture intrusion that happens over periods of time.

Using the foam shapes as pop outs or accents on Portland cement stucco is fine since the stucco wall is sound to begin with.

What it all boils down to in this trade is what architects can dream up on a piece of paper or computer screen. They have no clue about what type of systems should or should not be used in a certain locale.

In a dry climate such as found in the Southwest, you don't need to take the precautions you do in the Pacific Northwest.

But they don't take those things into account. The biggest problem I have seen over the years is the practice of getting away from using a good metal flashing and counter flashing that will divert any water away from exterior openings, such as windows and doorways.

They started using only calking because it looked better aesthetically to have a smooth joint around these openings. The trouble with caulk is, it only has a certain lifespan, then it fails. But nobody goes back to a 20 floor office building to replace all the calking every 10 years which is the average life span of the best calking made.

In the end, there is a place for unions in this country.

But to pay unskilled workers to drive in the same screws all day long $28/hr is ridiculous or to have labor halls where they draw the same wage whether they are working or not .

I work hard for my wage and feel insulted by some of the wages these auto workers make for doing unskilled labor.

I say let the companies go bankrupt. They will have to start from scratch and re-negotiate the labor contracts to a more realistic living wage that everybody can afford whether you are shopping for a new car or whatever.