5C3: How to balance paraphase inverter?

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Cygnus X1
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5C3: How to balance paraphase inverter?

Post by Cygnus X1 »

Actually-two questions.

I'm having trouble understanding the concept of adjusting the balance on the paraphase inverter on V2 (the second 6SC7).
Do I measure for voltage at the #5 pins of the 6V6's?
Which resistors/caps would I change off pins 2 or 3 of the pi?
Should I sub a pot or two in there to get a ballpark value?

Layout:
http://www.turretboards.com/layouts_sch ... layout.gif

Looking for more efficient operation and a tad more headroom. I already read about the only source that discusses this-Gerald Weber's article on harp amps, and his info on the 5C3 circuit. He mentions that it may need to be adjusted for balance, but doesn't say how.
There is also mention of reversing the primaries on the OT and altering the NFB.

Also-the grid leak bias on V1.
I am getting -.5VDC on pins 3 and 4, with 90 volts on the plates (pins 2 and 5). Schem calls for -.8VDC...with 85 Volts on the plates. Should I mess with this, or is it "close enough"?

So that is four options to explore.
I will never build this circuit again, at least not in this configuration,
It has been the biggest PITA I have ever dealt with.
Any help is appreciated! :D
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Phil_S
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Re: 5C3: How to balance paraphase inverter?

Post by Phil_S »

I recently tried the floating paraphase inverter, but it provided too much gain for the amp I was building. For the 5C3, it should work just fine.
I'm having trouble understanding the concept of adjusting the balance on the paraphase inverter on V2 (the second 6SC7).
Here is a terrific article on this type of PI, and he gives you the math you'll need to work on balancing. http://www.freewebs.com/valvewizard/flo ... phase.html What is it that makes you think "built as drawn" isn't right?
Do I measure for voltage at the #5 pins of the 6V6's?
Which resistors/caps would I change off pins 2 or 3 of the pi?
Should I sub a pot or two in there to get a ballpark value?
Pin 5 of the 6V6's is the grid/input point. There isn't much voltage there.

Pins 2 and 6 of the 6SC7 are the plates. Plate voltage is controlled first by the plate load resistor, in this case a pair of 250K, and second by the cathode resistor, which is 2.5K. Raising the 250K resistors will drop voltage and lowering the value will increase voltage. You don't say what you've got with a pair of 250K resistors, so it is impossible to comment on whether something could/should be done. Lowering the plate resistor will raise the noise level and a tube like a 6SC7 is a candidate for noise, so I wouldn't be quick to move in this direction. You might tweak the cathode resistor a bit. Try 2.2K or 2.7K and see if it makes a difference. For testing purposes, taking in a 18K or 22K resistor across the 2.5K will reduce it to around 2.2K; if you want to raise it, lift one end and tack in a resistor between 100 ohms and 250 ohms. Raising the value of the Rk will decrease plate voltage a bit and vice-versa. I would not do this with a pot; more work than it's worth and choices are rather limited to begin with.

As for balancing, you should probably look at the voltage divider that feeds the second grid on the 6SC7. There is a wire that goes between a 1M and a 25K+250K resistor. Changing those will change the characteristics of the PI

As for reversing the primaries on the OT for NFB, that is simply to correct the phasing on that part of the circuit. If the primaries are "backwards" you end up providing positive feedback instead of NFB and the amp will howl. You'll know right away if the leads need to be reversed. If it howls and then stops when you disconnect the NFB loop, reverse the leads.
Also-the grid leak bias on V1.
I am getting -.5VDC on pins 3 and 4, with 90 volts on the plates (pins 2 and 5). Schem calls for -.8VDC...with 85 Volts on the plates. Should I mess with this, or is it "close enough"?
Are you kidding? These numbers are right on the money. Leave it alone.
It has been the biggest PITA I have ever dealt with.
That's only because you are not familiar with it. Chalk this off to a learning experience. I understand it is frustrating, but keep working with it and you will get a great amp out of it.
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Cygnus X1
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Re: 5C3: How to balance paraphase inverter?

Post by Cygnus X1 »

I hate to admit this one.
D'oh.

After staring at the inside of this amp for a better part of a week, something just occurred to me.

The NFB wire isn't hooked up.
It isn't really even "there".
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Phil_S
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Re: 5C3: How to balance paraphase inverter?

Post by Phil_S »

NFB not required for the PI to work. It will change the sound. You might like it better with or without. Give it a try.
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Structo
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Re: 5C3: How to balance paraphase inverter?

Post by Structo »

I'm kind of curious why you chose the 5C3 cicuit.
Most agree that the 5E3 is the best of the Deluxe designs.

I tried that but found didn't care for it at all.
I am so used to a long tailed pair PI that I soon morphed it into that.
Tom

Don't let that smoke out!
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Cygnus X1
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Re: 5C3: How to balance paraphase inverter?

Post by Cygnus X1 »

Structo, I'm wondering the same thing myself.
I am building this in return of a favor from a friend who sends me old tube stuff to work on. He won't touch the stuff.

I wanted an all-octal build that would match the transformers in this Grommes monoblock. 10 watt-ish.
I have a 5E3, and love it.
The 5C3 is a different animal altogether.
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Phil_S
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Re: 5C3: How to balance paraphase inverter?

Post by Phil_S »

Cygnus: Here, this is 10W all octal: see link below. Your V1 can stay as is. The triode output is very clean, but I suspect it will take pedals very nicely. If you drive the triode finals too hard they get trashy very quickly, which is the reason for the split load PI (no gain added). 6SN7's can be bought relatively cheap.

No apologies if you choose to listen to those terrible clips. I don't claim to have any talent as a guitar player. Clipping that you hear is an artifact of the primitive recording equipment, not the amp.

http://home.comcast.net/~psymonds/6SN7amp.htm
Link seems to be fixed. Sorry, don't know what the problem was.
Last edited by Phil_S on Tue Mar 31, 2009 1:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
Andy Le Blanc
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Re: 5C3: How to balance paraphase inverter?

Post by Andy Le Blanc »

Balance with paraphase inverter is critical. Both DC and AC, and, once you
get it nice and balanced, which does sound very nice, you have to check and
re-balance it as the tubes characteristics drift with age. These have a lot of
gain and make for a nice never quite clean tone. With a floating paraphase
the AC isnt quite so critical but can tweaked on the inverted leg, the resistor
that feed s the "floating" network. These inverters dont need extra global feed back
and sound really good in a very simple format.
lazymaryamps
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Cygnus X1
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Re: 5C3: How to balance paraphase inverter?

Post by Cygnus X1 »

Phil-the link doesn't work. I would love to see it.


Andy-why is nearly everyone else saying not to worry about the balance too much?
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Phil_S
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Re: 5C3: How to balance paraphase inverter?

Post by Phil_S »

I edited the post and think the link is fixed. Please PM me if it continues to fail. I saw the error and got a clean hit on the fix. It's here, too.
http://home.comcast.net/~psymonds/6SN7amp.htm
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Phil_S
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Re: 5C3: How to balance paraphase inverter?

Post by Phil_S »

Cygnus X1 wrote:Phil-the link doesn't work. I would love to see it.
Andy-why is nearly everyone else saying not to worry about the balance too much?
Obviously, I'm not Andy. I suspect the answer is that they haven't actually seen one up close. I built one for the project I posted and then tore it out because it was all wrong for the triode finals. I did not understand how much gain it has. There is a lot of voltage swing in the paraphase inverter, accounting for the gain. I'm out of my depth here, but am guessing that it needs to swing equal and opposite to sound right, and this is where balancing is important. In some modest respect, this is not unlike self-split push pull, where one half of the pair is driving the other half.
Andy Le Blanc
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Re: 5C3: How to balance paraphase inverter?

Post by Andy Le Blanc »

The most commonly used inverter used today (by too many) is the cathode
coupled long- tailed one that you commonly see in fender schematics. It uses
feedback in its design (without global feedback) and is pretty linear and stable
regardless of voltage variations, tube variation, etc..... which is why
many people don't worry about balance. The trade of is that you sacrifice gain,
and the feedback has a characteristic effect upon the products of harmonic distortion.
For push pull to work best you need to have two signals of equal magnitude
that are opposite in phase, this is where the balance becomes important.
the better the balance the better the response of the amp, without feedback
to squash the effects of imbalance its more so. Now, the argument is that
imbalance makes better tone color, which is true in a system that uses gobs
of feedback. But when you use a system without feedback its the other way
round, the only way to make the amp more linear, with a wide usable band
width is to improve balance. I like a simple amp that uses a paraphase
inverter, it does a tone that you cant get any other way, its draw backs
add up to a great tone that is improved with good balance.
lazymaryamps
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Cygnus X1
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Re: 5C3: How to balance paraphase inverter?

Post by Cygnus X1 »

Thank you, all! :D

I'll take a closer look later, Phil.
Your guitar playing can't be much worse than mine.
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Cygnus X1
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Re: 5C3: How to balance paraphase inverter?

Post by Cygnus X1 »

Tried to quote, Phil-it crashed on me!

Yes, the clips worked.
Very smooth sounding amp-just what I am looking for.
As for the playing-well you build a great sounding amp. :D
I've been there.

BTW-very dumb question-how are you hosting the soundclips?
Do you have a website, or some other method?

I signed up to soundclick and got tired of clicking through 7 or 8 screens just to upload a little bit. I even managed to lose my password for the place.
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Phil_S
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Re: 5C3: How to balance paraphase inverter?

Post by Phil_S »

Cygnus X1 wrote:Tried to quote, Phil-it crashed on me!

Yes, the clips worked.
Very smooth sounding amp-just what I am looking for.
As for the playing-well you build a great sounding amp. :D
I've been there.
This is very kind of you. Thank for being so patient about it.
BTW-very dumb question-how are you hosting the soundclips?
Do you have a website, or some other method?
This is my "free" webspace that comes with my Comcast internet subscription. It is just a bit of HTML referencing a file that was copied to the Comcast server:
"<p><a href="6SN7WAV/take1-1.wav">1-1</a></p>" The last bit "1-1" is what appears on the web page.
I signed up to soundclick and got tired of clicking through 7 or 8 screens just to upload a little bit. I even managed to lose my password for the place.
Certainly, Soundclick and it's ilk are a vast improvement over my solution, but I have enough subscriptions and have lost a few passwords myself. Too bad they make you jump through hoops.
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