HT voltages for 12L6

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oxbow_lake
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HT voltages for 12L6

Post by oxbow_lake »

Hello,

I'm playing with the design of a Princeton (AA964) preamp/PI with push-pull 12L6 output stage. Aiming for 10W output. I want to push the 12L6s past their maximum specs, which are 200V plate and 125V respectively. If Fender can do it why can't I, right? :roll: I was thinking something like 230-260V HT, split in half for the screens.

Because these tubes do not have 6.3V heaters, I do not want to use a power transformer with both HT and heater windings. The most economical option seems to be a 115:230CT PT at ~$20 and a separate 12V filament transformer (~$15).

However, with SS rectification this is going to give me about 310V HT. I thought about using a 115:115V isolation transformer with a voltage doubler, which in my experience would produce an HT closer to 270V, but Merlin says using a doubler to provide disparate HT voltages is a bad idea because it will cause DC in the transformer. Using a dropping resistor for 50V right off the bad is less than optimal.

Is there an inexpensive and/or smart way to provide both ~250V and 125V?
nuke
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Re: HT voltages for 12L6

Post by nuke »

Try a voltage multiplier power supply, similar to what's in the Silvertone 1484 schematic. That one uses two transformer secondary coils at about 90-VAC each, and 4 diodes and capacitors. Each leg produces about 130 VDC.

Just take a single stage with two diodes, two caps and one secondary coil of about the same 90 volts AC to feed the multiplier, yielding just about the same voltages you're looking for.
oxbow_lake
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Re: HT voltages for 12L6

Post by oxbow_lake »

Ha! Merlin says this:
PXL_20250620_205253327.jpg
but I guess it worked for silvertone!

Unless anyone has other ideas I might switch over to 6W6 tubes and just go with the 310V B+.
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nuke
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Re: HT voltages for 12L6

Post by nuke »

I can attest that the 1484 actually works very well in practice. I've played mine any number of times.

I was curious what book that is, and if they offered any analysis of why they made the recommendation?

Electrically, it is the same as any half-wave rectification power supply and the same design considerations apply.
oxbow_lake
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Re: HT voltages for 12L6

Post by oxbow_lake »

It's Merlin Blencowe's, "Designing Power Supplies for Tube Amplifiers." Here's the relevant pages.
PXL_20250621_093933767.jpg
PXL_20250621_094009871.jpg
PXL_20250621_094019519.jpg
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oxbow_lake
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Re: HT voltages for 12L6

Post by oxbow_lake »

You know, if we use the Tung Sol datasheet for a 6W6gt which is quite generous in terms of maximum ratings (330V plate, 165v screen, 12W) (https://bms.isjtr.ro/sheets/127/6/6W6GT.pdf, not the top "tentative data" part but at the bottom after the plots), then the whole situation seems to be much more plausible with a 310V HT.

I plotted a load line using 300V on the plate and a Marshall 18W 8k4 OT and get this, which seems pretty reasonable? I don't expect this to sound like a Fender, but I think it could be decent?

Also good grief, the 12W6 is available for $3 per tube.
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R.G.
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Re: HT voltages for 12L6

Post by R.G. »

oxbow_lake wrote: Fri Jun 20, 2025 4:34 pm [...] I want to push the 12L6s past their maximum specs, which are 200V plate and 125V respectively.
[...]Because these tubes do not have 6.3V heaters, I do not want to use a power transformer with both HT and heater windings. The most economical option seems to be a 115:230CT PT at ~$20 and a separate 12V filament transformer (~$15).

However, with SS rectification this is going to give me about 310V HT.
If you're open to more than one transformer, use three: a 120:120 @ 100ma, a 120:12 @ 60-100ma for the heater, and a 120:34v@ 100ma for boosting. The 120V output and 34V output can be stacked to get 150Vac, which full-wave-bridge rectifies with SS to 154*1.414 = 216Vdc, minus ripple sag and/or transformer winding losses. Transformers in this power range are available in PCB mount, so you can put all three on a single hand wired or printed board. They cost in the range of $10-$15 in this range, so the cost can be similar, and you get the transformer voltages you want.

These alternatives typically don't give you the visual of the bell-enclosed transformer above the chassis, though.

You can make your screen voltage from 200V with a resistive divider and a MOSFET follower for the screens. With a resistive divider the screens will not be hard-regulated and will sag with the main B+. The12L6 data sheet says it wants 6ma on the screens, so a MOSFET dropping 100V at 6ma is dissipating 0.6W; very do-able.
I thought about using a 115:115V isolation transformer with a voltage doubler, which in my experience would produce an HT closer to 270V, but Merlin says using a doubler to provide disparate HT voltages is a bad idea because it will cause DC in the transformer.
That's a common misconception. But transformers simply can not move DC across the windings, so whatever comes out of the secondary is AC. To a first approximation, you can't saturate a transformer from the secondary.

To a second approximation, you can cause a mild DC offset on the primary because of the I-R drop in the transformer primary windings with a half-wave circuit. It is very unusual for this to cause any issues on a non-toroidal core. It's possible to contrive a setup to do it, but it's ignored in general in the industry. The world is (or was, before switching power supplies) full of low power designs with half wave rectifiers, which is what a half-wave doubler is. Then there are full-wave doubler circuits, which remove the possibility for the second-approximation issue.
Using a dropping resistor for 50V right off the bad is less than optimal.
Yeah, it's not perfect, but then optimal is a special wound transformer, so you're kind of past that already. But you do have lots of options to make it work.
"It's not what we don't know that gets us in trouble. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"
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nuke
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Re: HT voltages for 12L6

Post by nuke »

I'm not sure I agree with conclusion in the book.

It's the same issue presented by half-wave rectifier power supplies. How much screen current do you contemplate in your design?

In the mentioned Silvertone 1484, the plate supply is at the top of the multiplier. The screens are supplied from the second leg down, but a fed through a choke in series with the screens, then resistor divider network to feed all the preamp stages.

Also, there's a second winding/multiplier underneath that, so the screens/preamps sit on top of those.

I can attest in actual practice, the transformer in the 1484 doesn't buzz or run hot and the amp actually works well.
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martin manning
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Re: HT voltages for 12L6

Post by martin manning »

oxbow_lake wrote: Sat Jun 21, 2025 11:40 am I plotted a load line using 300V on the plate and a Marshall 18W 8k4 OT and get this, which seems pretty reasonable?
What screen voltage are you expecting to run? 125V as shown?
oxbow_lake
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Re: HT voltages for 12L6

Post by oxbow_lake »

martin manning wrote: Sat Jun 21, 2025 10:21 pm
oxbow_lake wrote: Sat Jun 21, 2025 11:40 am I plotted a load line using 300V on the plate and a Marshall 18W 8k4 OT and get this, which seems pretty reasonable?
What screen voltage are you expecting to run? 125V as shown?
I was going to give them 1/2 the HT, so ~150V. That would push the curves up for that chart, but it's still within the 6W6 specs (according to some sources) for screen voltage. As for screen power dissipation, the plot doesn't show screen current, and honestly I don't know how to estimate what it would be beyond the datasheet suggestions, but my hope was that it would be close enough that with a screen grid resistor protecting them the screens wouldn't just melt.

These design values are clearly pushing past what the manufacturers recommended, but are they so far past as to be stupid, or worth rolling the dice and building? None of the parts are hugely expensive, so there's not a ton to lose.

R.G. I like the idea of using more transformers, I will keep that in mind for the future. If the voltage were appropriate, is there any reason not to take the screen voltage straight from the lower transformer in the stack, rather than deriving it from the HT using a voltage divider? I have never tried the divider/MOSFET technique, but I think you are talking about this:
PXL_20250622_020652962.jpg
Can you use that arrangement to get any arbitrary lower voltage? Are there practical limitations? Are there existing examples in the tube amp context that I should be looking at?

Thanks everyone, you are good sports!
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oxbow_lake
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Re: HT voltages for 12L6

Post by oxbow_lake »

oxbow_lake wrote: Sun Jun 22, 2025 2:11 am Can you use that arrangement to get any arbitrary lower voltage? Are there practical limitations? Are there existing examples in the tube amp context that I should be looking at?
Sorry, this has been asked on forums in the past. This would be the specific technique to use, yes?

http://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?to ... #msg217908
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martin manning
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Re: HT voltages for 12L6

Post by martin manning »

oxbow_lake wrote: Sun Jun 22, 2025 2:11 am Can you use that arrangement to get any arbitrary lower voltage? Are there practical limitations? Are there existing examples in the tube amp context that I should be looking at?
Yes, this will work fine. I helped a member here do the same for a pair of KT88's to get ~2/3 Va for the screens. If you wanted Vg2 at half of Va I would not hesitate to use a doubler and take the screen supply from the center of the cap stack. Music Man did this with 100W amps in the '70's, with 700V on the plates, and many of them are still in use. At some point the gymnastics required to get odd tubes to work, while entertaining, begins to outweigh the cost advantage. You might get away with a low cost MOSFET here given the low power.

If you are running 315V Va and 15V Vk I would use 120V Vg2 and an 8k Raa. A 5E3 or Marshall 18W OT would work well. Here's a better data sheet: https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/093/6/6W6GT.pdf
R.G.
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Re: HT voltages for 12L6

Post by R.G. »

oxbow_lake wrote: Sun Jun 22, 2025 2:11 am R.G. I like the idea of using more transformers, I will keep that in mind for the future.
It's a handy dodge if you can't find an off-the-shelf trannie to work. Even more useful is the ability to stack a number of windings to get non-standard voltages. The windings can add to or subtract from a single winding voltage. In this case, I was using it to add a 120V and a 34V secondary to get 154Vac - not an off-the-shelf value - to rectify to about 200-ish volts. I used it in the Vintage Voltage Adapter to cut a 125V line down to about 112V total for old amps.
If the voltage were appropriate, is there any reason not to take the screen voltage straight from the lower transformer in the stack, rather than deriving it from the HT using a voltage divider?
Only that "if the voltage were appropriate" thing, and the fact that the rectification to DC can get complicated. You're usually not going to get an appropriate DC voltage from a transformer except in the case of a full-wave-bridge rectifier with a center tap.

As a general rule of thumb, AC mains transformers are not accurate sources of voltage. The tolerance band is too wide. This worked for tube equipment - mostly - because tubes are so very tolerant of wandering power supply voltages. Modern electronics nearly all use regulated voltages because we have worked out ways to efficiently and cheaply regulate.
I have never tried the divider/MOSFET technique, but I think you are talking about this:
[...]
Can you use that arrangement to get any arbitrary lower voltage? Are there practical limitations?
As Martin says, yes, it's an OK way to get lower voltages. There are some practical limitations, though. In general, you have to consider how much current leaves the divider chain at the junction of the resistors. If its more than 1/10th or so of the current through the dividers, you have to design the dividers differently. The top-side resistor has to drop the desired voltage at the desired total current of the lower resistor plus the current pulled from the resistor junction. The lower resistor is chosen for the divider voltage and the current left after the exiting current is removed. Down at the bottom of this all, Ohm's law applies. the current through a resistor is >always< equal to the voltage across it divided by the resistance.

The MOSFET voltage source is a resistor divider that drives the zero-current gate of a MOSFET, so the resistor values in the divider can just be chosen for the desired voltage. The MOSFET gate eats no current. The MOSFET starts conducting when its source is pulled down by the gate-source threshold voltage, about 2 to 6V relative to the gate. After that, the MOSFET lets through about one to many amperes per addition volt of Vgs. This setup can provide any voltage at the MOSFET source from 0 up to a few volts below the drain supply. The limitation here is the power wasted in the MOSFET. The MOSFET makes heat equal to the voltage across it times the current through it. In this case I looked up the screen current for the 12W6 (6ma) and subtracted the screen voltage from the 200V B+ to get 100V across the MOSFET. The power in the MOSFET is then 100V times 0.006A, or 0.6W. That's a reasonable amount to get dissipated out of a TO-220 MOSFET without additional heat sinks.
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Phil_S
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Re: HT voltages for 12L6

Post by Phil_S »

It is my recollection that Merlin withdrew his power supplies book from publication due to several inaccuracies that surfaced and with no plans to put out a new edition. If my memory is correct on this point, I'm suggest it is not the definitive source for this topic. I'd be inclined to give weight to RG and Nuke. I'm a big fan of building on the cheap. Good luck with your project!
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martin manning
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Re: HT voltages for 12L6

Post by martin manning »

Phil_S wrote: Sun Jun 22, 2025 3:14 pm It is my recollection that Merlin withdrew his power supplies book from publication…
He did, but now there is a second edition as shown in the photo of the cover above.
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