W/D/W Using The FX-Loop Vs. A "Line Out Box"?

[DarthTangYang]

Hello!

I'm building a W/D/W rig and the plan has been to go out through the FX-Loop Send of my main amp (my dry amp) into an ABY-Splitter, sending one of the signals back through the FX-Return and out to its dedicated cab, while the second signal goes on through any and all wet effects, ending with a stereo delay. From there on the two signals goes through a dual isolation box before going into two separate amps (my wet amps).

Now, I recently came across the concept of basically doing the same but going out through the speaker output of the dry amp instead and into a so called "Line Out Box" that (as far as I understand) reverses what the power amp did in my dry amp by lowering the strength of the signal and splitting it just like an ABY-Splitter. Then the subsequent setup is the same as in the first scenario.

So, what's the benefit of doing this? Someone said I'd get the "benefit" of the "full amp circuit" rather than just having the signal going through the preamp. But since any meaningful shaping of my tone happens in the preamp (EQ) then what's the benefit of doing this? The power amp just boosts/strengthens the signal and the "Line Out Box" lowers it again in order not to fry any pedals after it. So what's the point?

[pdf64]

… But since any meaningful shaping of my tone happens in the preamp (EQ) then what's the benefit of doing this? The power amp just boosts/strengthens the signal …

Is that assumption, or have you verified it?
eg combined with the large variation of a speaker’s impedance with frequency, the highish output impedance of the valve power amps typically used results in a mid scooped power amp frequency response.
Hence reactive attenuators / loads are a thing.

[Reeltarded]

I have been stereo since the mid 80s.

Amp
Load box
Effect stack
Stereo solid state amp
Pairs of speaker boxes

The stereo IS the wet and dry. Just like when you hear a recording.

If you use multiple amps you need a load for each and a mixer with fx auxes.

[DarthTangYang]

This is how I was planning to achieve W/D/W.

There would also be two cables running from two of the EXT CTRL ports on the ES-8 to the footswitch inputs of both the Orange TH30 and the V4 Kraken, allowing me to include channel switching in the programming of the ES-8. But I chose not to include that as it would have made the diagram more confusing. I also excluded the isolation box for the stereo output cables running from the ES-8 to the two wet amps. This is just a simple example of the setup and the basic routing.

[R.G.]

What you propose is probably do-able if it's set up right and the levels are tinkered to be compatible with the various boxes the signals feed.

But, as mentioned, there is likely to be some tonal difference between the output of a preamp (at the FX loop out/send) and the output of the dry amp, as power amps do have their own tone response and distortion, as well as the sound being modified by the speaker loading and the acoustic response of the speakers driven by the dry amp. Taking the drive for the FX and wet amps does not feed them the signal as modified by the dry amp's power amp and speaker. If you're counting on getting the final result of the dry amp and speaker effects, you will not be getting that.

You may or may not care about the contribution of the dry amp and dry amp's speaker. There is so much signal tinkering going on that it may not matter. The wet amps and wet amps' speakers will also cause their own tonal shifts, and that will of course shift the tonal mix. It's hard to say just what you'll get out.

A line-out box gives you a level-tamed version of the electrical signal to the speakers, and so it includes the effects of the dry amp's power amp and any speaker loading on it, although it does not include any acoustic funnies of the dry amp's speaker's acoustic response.

I guess the bottom line is that every chunk of electronics that the signal touches will have some change, big or little, to the signal being fed into it. Whether this is what you had in mind when you started this is hard to predict. Of course, per the Cheshire Cat's conversation with Alice:

“Alice: Would you tell me, please, which way I ought to go from here?
The Cheshire Cat: That depends a good deal on where you want to get to.
Alice: I don't much care where.
The Cheshire Cat: Then it doesn't much matter which way you go.
Alice: ...So long as I get somewhere.
The Cheshire Cat: Oh, you're sure to do that, if only you walk long enough.”

[Reeltarded]

stereo effects with dead dry.. hmm.. I hate that.

I use Palmer ADIG (PGA-04) as loads. The Palmer has XLR out and two aux 1/4s. It also has a speaker thru. I hardwire the left side (EQ out) CLOSED and use the simple middle output knob.

In a one amp rig, that feeds the effects stack (fx all in series) to a 2200w class D driving either 2 or 4 4x12 cabs. All the effects mixing is done in the boxes.

Multiple amps it feeds a channel on a 16/4/2 mixer with inserts, two aux, and bus auxes.

Loop out is going to split your signal at the loop. This is the first problem that becomes more of a nightmare when you start trying to get a sound down the middle, plus you have two ears.. I don't have a center ear.

If you walk 3m out and 3m left, your monitor situation just went to hell. Yep.

Stereo is the way to go. The dry is the sum of both cabinets. Effects are mixed into the same cabinet pairs. You walk diagonally away and you hear the mix as you created it. I don't know why the internet forums birthed a three channel output.

Maybe inexperience.

[DarthTangYang]

A line-out box gives you a level-tamed version of the electrical signal to the speakers, and so it includes the effects of the dry amp's power amp and any speaker loading on it, although it does not include any acoustic funnies of the dry amp's speaker's acoustic response.

I guess the bottom line is that every chunk of electronics that the signal touches will have some change, big or little, to the signal being fed into it. Whether this is what you had in mind when you started this is hard to predict.

What I want to achieve is a punchy dry in the middle while having the ability to add lots of wet effects in stereo around it, without compromising the definition, 'punchyness' and clarity of the dry. The dry in this case will mostly consist of a quite distorted tone but I also use clean. I also want to utilize the fact that the wet effects are in stereo, so 'ping pong:ing' delay is pretty high on my list for this project.

Now, if running the signal from my dry amp to the wet effects through its speaker output to a "Line Out Box" will yield a better result, with a higher quality tone as the foundation for my wet amps then I definitely will use that instead. I just thought the power amp didn't really add any color to the tone, so that's why I wondered about it.

Most of the information about this type of W/D/W I've seen describes using a pretty clean, pedal-platform-type amp in the center and achieving any overdrive/distortion using pedals and splitting the signal right after those pedals. One cable then goes to the dry amp while the second cable goes through all the wet pedals, ending with a stereo delay that then sends two signals to the two wet amps. So that's why I was so set on using a splitter to achieve this. But since I want to use the distortion in my amp and not pedals I was unsure of where to place the splitter in such a scenario. That's when I stumbled upon the Line Out Box. I think it was a YouTube video with Mason Marangella from Vertex Effects who said that one should use a Line Out Box from the amp but he didn't explain why.

[pdf64]

… I don't know why the internet forums birthed a three channel output…

I think it predates the internet, I recall reading EVH articles and interviews back in the 80s and 90s.
He described how Palmer designed him a rig similar to your preference, to enable him to get those Eventide fx tones sounding the same on stage as in the studio.
EHV used it like that for a bit, then had a bright idea and swapped the load box for a cab, thereby creating the W-D-W rig.

[DarthTangYang]

stereo effects with dead dry.. hmm.. I hate that.

I'm not sure what you mean with "dead dry". Isn't the point of W/D/W to have one amp with 100% dry effects that allows you to use a f-ton of wet effects without compromising the definition that would otherwise get lost in a muddy sludge of effects?

I use Palmer ADIG (PGA-04) as loads. The Palmer has XLR out and two aux 1/4s. It also has a speaker thru. I hardwire the left side (EQ out) CLOSED and use the simple middle output knob.

In a one amp rig, that feeds the effects stack (fx all in series) to a 2200w class D driving either 2 or 4 4x12 cabs. All the effects mixing is done in the boxes.

Multiple amps it feeds a channel on a 16/4/2 mixer with inserts, two aux, and bus auxes.

I'm sorry but I have no idea what you mean with "speaker thru", "hardwire the left side (EQ out) CLOSED" or "simple middle output knob". This is my first go at a more advanced rig setup and I have no experience of any of this. I simply want to know the best approach to using the gear I have at hand.

Amplifiers:
1X Orange TH30 head with a Victory V4 Kraken in its FX-loop, running through a Harley Benton 2/12 cab.
2X 100W Hughes & Kettner Vortex Black Series heads with two Hughes & Kettner 4/12 cabs.

Pedals:
Boss RV-500, Boss DD-500, TC Electronic- Vortex Flanger, Electro Harmonix Green Russian Big Muff and Dunlop CryBaby GCB95.

Apart from these pedals I'm planning to also get a Boss MD-500, Boss EQ-200, Boss RC-500 and a Boss ES-8 or a Morningstar ML10X to control everything, including the channel switching of both the TH30 and the V4 Kraken.

I will also get a BonaFide as an input buffer right after the CryBaby and the Muff, as well as an output buffer capable of taking stereo signals after the DD-500 at the end of the entire effect chain. Then I will probably have to get some form of dual isolation box to send the stereo signals from the DD-500 through in order to isolate them from each other as well as phase reverse one of the outputs if neccessary.

Loop out is going to split your signal at the loop. This is the first problem that becomes more of a nightmare when you start trying to get a sound down the middle, plus you have two ears.. I don't have a center ear.

If you walk 3m out and 3m left, your monitor situation just went to hell. Yep.

So, the gear listed above is what I have and are planning to get in order to build a W/D/W rig using 3 amps, one dry, two stereo wet. This might not be the ideal setup, I simply don't know since I have no previous experience of any type of setup using more than one amp. I simply like the idea of using 3 amps for W/D/W. It makes sense to me.

Now if running the signal from the dry amp out through the speaker output into a Line Out Box that splits the signal instead of using an ABY-splitter in the loop is a better option then I'm definitely willing to do that. But let's be honest, no matter what your setup is, moving around in your rehersal space while playing will always change the sound to some extent and if you in addition run different sets of effects out through two or more cabs this will be even more true. But I sure don't have 3m to move to each side of my setup and I will most likely stay pretty centered while playing as that's the sensible thing to do with such a rig.

Stereo is the way to go. The dry is the sum of both cabinets. Effects are mixed into the same cabinet pairs. You walk diagonally away and you hear the mix as you created it. I don't know why the internet forums birthed a three channel output.

Maybe inexperience.

I don't know who "birthed" the idea of a 3 channel output setup but I doubt it happened on the internet. Plenty of people run 3 amp setups and seem to love it so I guess it's probably a matter of taste. It's definitely not a very gig-friendly setup, I totally see that, but I'm no gigging musician anymore so that's not a problem for me. I don't know if it will suit me until I actually try it.

However, I didn't write this post asking for completely different, alternative setups. I was asking for advice on where and how to split the signal after the distortion in my Orange and the Kraken preamp in its FX-loop as I want whichever of the channels I'm using to go through my wet effects. It seem to me that a Line Out Box is the way to go so I will probably go down that route. I could use some advice on which such Line Out Box to get though as I don't have a clue. The ABY-splitter I was planning to get is made by a small company in Brighton UK called Bright Onion LOL. Just love that name Perhaps they make a Line Out Box as well, but I'm sure open to any suggestions.

[Reeltarded]

… I don't know why the internet forums birthed a three channel output…

I think it predates the internet, I recall reading EVH articles and interviews back in the 80s and 90s.
He described how Palmer designed him a rig similar to your preference, to enable him to get those Eventide fx tones sounding the same on stage as in the studio.
EHV used it like that for a bit, then had a bright idea and swapped the load box for a cab, thereby creating the W-D-W rig.

At first, I was forced to run a dry cabinet (for each channel but the clean) because the most reliable way to feed effects from a Marshall was a direct feed from the output.

Forced. For a time I had a three channel 9 CAB RIG. Ask the mixer if that is a fun time, house or monitors. I took more inputs than the drummer.

Now I have three amps and two outputs. Left and Right. I use spacial effects because dry sucks. I have two ears. I shouldn't have to twist my neck like a dog to find a sweet-spot.

Carry on!

[Reeltarded]

You need a device like a Klein-U-Lator or a Dumbleator to make up the gain loss at the preamp split. The thing you are trying to do could all be done from the simplest mixer as an insert in your loop with your amp feeding one channel through the channel insert.

I predict you looking for a way to mix dry signal into the effects program in the near future. I traveled here from the past to warn you.

[DarthTangYang]

You need a device like a Klein-U-Lator or a Dumbleator to make up the gain loss at the preamp split. The thing you are trying to do could all be done from the simplest mixer as an insert in your loop with your amp feeding one channel through the channel insert.

Ok, now I'm even more confused I assumed I shouldn't split the signal in the loop and go for a Line Out Box instead? But how would this mixer sit in the FX-loop together with my V4 Kraken then?

I predict you looking for a way to mix dry signal into the effects program in the near future. I traveled here from the past to warn you.

Not sure I understand. The plan IS to run my dry effects (distortion/fuzz) through my wet effects, I just want to keep the dry amp completely dry in order to keep it clear and well defined without having the signal turn to mush. I won't be able to mix how much dry goes through the wet effects (if that's what you mean) but the wet won't be 100% wet, it will be moist . It will be the same distorted effect in the dry amp going through the wet effects.

But perhaps there's a better way of achieving what I'm after, which is a clear, well defined, punchy tone with lots of trippy, wet effects without having the signal/signals turn to mush?

[DarthTangYang]

Now I have three amps and two outputs. Left and Right. I use spacial effects because dry sucks. I have two ears. I shouldn't have to twist my neck like a dog to find a sweet-spot.

I'm sorry if I seem daft but I'm a noob at all of this technical stuff regarding guitar gear. Especially when it comes to advanced routing using mixers, racks, attenuators, splitters, loads etc. and I've probably misunderstood completely. But you do run 3 amps as well, but... you have all effects in all 3 Both dry and wet... or?

[Reeltarded]

Now I have three amps and two outputs. Left and Right. I use spacial effects because dry sucks. I have two ears. I shouldn't have to twist my neck like a dog to find a sweet-spot.

I'm sorry if I seem daft but I'm a noob at all of this technical stuff regarding guitar gear. Especially when it comes to advanced routing using mixers, racks, attenuators, splitters, loads etc. and I've probably misunderstood completely. But you do run 3 amps as well, but... you have all effects in all 3 Both dry and wet... or?

Yes, all three amps have access to delays, modulation, and reverbs because of the auxes provided by a mixer. This is how a Bradshaw rig works.

Best if you google Bradshaw and look at custom setups. I'm making this topic impossible with descriptions. heh

be right back

[Reeltarded]

So confusing. Using the most broken down simple diagram I could find, this is how EVH did his thing before Bob Bradshaw.

This was the most annoying google search I hve ever done. Civilization is coming to a close.

The red X is a deletion of all post amp effects and the mixer is added to show where all the post amp time based effects are routed. As you see, with a mixer you can channelize whole amps and route to any rack effect to feed a stereo amp and cabinets.

4E44FABA-46EA-413B-B077-5367A916D94B.jpeg