Cloning An Amp Without A Schematic?

[jfs322]

Hello,

First off, a preface: I am not an amp tech. Rather, I know an amp tech near me who is willing to build me an amp. I don't have in mind any schematics of a particular amp, but I have a ton of youtube videos of a bunch of different amp sounds that I like. So I'm curious about the technical aspects of building an amp: Can a competent amp builder clone a particular amp's sound with just a video demo of the amp, or do they need a schematic? Is it an easily translatable as something like "oh, I hear how the top end is voiced in this video, and that means you adjust x and y components and it'll sound like that" or is the process a lot more complicated than that?

Can a good builder clone an amp's vibe/sound just by ear alone? Or do I need to find a schematic?

Thanks!

[xtian]

The world of amps is based on a few big branches of the family tree (Fender, Marshall, Vox) and all these circuits are well researched and documented. In theory, a competent amp builder could listen to some clips, talk to you about what you like, and build an amp to suit you, based on existing designs. I'd charge $2-4K for such a service, based on level of customization, amp choice, etc.

Could someone listen to a clip and accurately clone the amp being played? Not likely. Sure, one could make some educated guesses, but it would be a shot in the dark.

[jfs322]

Thanks! I should clarify: I'm not expecting him to be able to clone the actual circuit based just on hearing the amp; I mean cloning the sound of the amp. I'm assuming there are a number of different ways, a number of different circuit configurations, to arrive at the same general sound. And so I guess the clarified question is could a tech re-create the sound of an amp--even if the circuit is different--just by listening to the amp? Or is this still asking too much?

How close could one get--just "in the ballpark", i.e. if it's a clean fender-ish amp being played, you can replicate a general clean fender amp vibe. Or could you actually be able to replicate specific things -- like how the specific amp's bass responds, how the treble rings out -- just by listening?

Thanks again. This is really helpful in shaping my expectations in deciding whether the cost is worth it. Like I said, I don't have a specific schematic, and I'm not sure if I'd find it worth the cost if the closest a competent tech could get is "oh, the clip sounds like a fender, i'll build you a fender." If that's the case, I might just pass and try to find an existing amp model that fits my needs.

[sluckey]

There are several good modeling amps that can do what you ask.

[xtian]

You don’t know exactly what you want. So anything built for you is going to be either

A. Exactly perfect

Or

B. Not right

You need to get out and play some amps!

[jfs322]

I do know what I want, it's just that I don't have a schematic for it, I just have video clips. So all I'm asking is if I went to a tech and said "here you go, make an amp that sounds like this one," how close can a competent tech get without a schematic? Could a tech get only "in the ballpark," or could it actually be a convincing replication?

Thanks -- sorry if I'm being unclear.

[pompeiisneaks]

I do know what I want, it's just that I don't have a schematic for it, I just have video clips. So all I'm asking is if I went to a tech and said "here you go, make an amp that sounds like this one," how close can a competent tech get without a schematic? Could a tech get only "in the ballpark," or could it actually be a convincing replication?

Thanks -- sorry if I'm being unclear.

I think you're maybe not using terms to define what you want very well. If you've heard an amp in a video, why can't you see what amp it is? Many artist's amps are documented, so you should be able to lookup the amps they use and get that amp cloned or something similar. As was mentioned, if you go play some amps you'll know pretty quickly which ones you like etc.

If you want a custom amp, you should already know exactly what sound you're going for or you'll be dissapointed in it not being what you 'hear in your head'. Can you share some of these videos?

As has been mentioned, any good amp builder can build any known amp, but won't likely be able to guess just based on a sound sample. They'll have a general idea of what 'may' be right, but have a pretty high chance of being just barely off enough to not be exactly what you were looking for. Also very few amps hit every single tone a player may want, thus why people often have several amps, and use a lot of footpedals as well.

Knowing what you want is pretty important.

Can you answer questions like:

What guitar player has the tone you want the most?
Do you want a simple amp setup that's taking almost no pedals with a classic sound and built in reverb, do you want a pedal platform?
What types of music do you play?

Etc.

Knowing the answers to many of these questions will quite often point to a very specific set of amps that can do the job you need. There are others as well, but I'm just throwing a few examples out there.

~Phil

[chief mushroom cloud]

why don't you post a few of the choice videos, and maybe someone here can get you pretty damn close. everyone here is familiar w/ 'sounds' and 'circuits'

[jfs322]

Wow, thanks everyone, this is really helpful! I'll work on compiling some videos, if that helps. Essentially it's not just one amp, though. If it were, I would just buy that amp and not go the custom route. Rather, it's more that I hope it can be a combination of the parts I like from many different amps -- sort of like a "take the bass response from the amp in video 1, the vocal midrange in the amp in video 2, and the top end chime from the amp in video 3, and then when the amp overdrives, I want it to sound like the overdrive of the amp in video 4."

And so I'm just worried that my expectations are too high, in that I suspect he'll be like "yeah, that's not how amp building works" or "i can't do that just from video clips." I don't want to waste this tech's time on something if it's doomed to fall short from the start, so that's why I figured I'd run it by you guys, the experts, first to see if what I'm looking for is unrealistic.

[sluckey]

At some point you will have this discussion with your amp tech. Why not now?

[nworbetan]

Rather, it's more that I hope it can be a combination of the parts I like from many different amps -- sort of like a "take the bass response from the amp in video 1, the vocal midrange in the amp in video 2, and the top end chime from the amp in video 3, and then when the amp overdrives, I want it to sound like the overdrive of the amp in video 4."

Without even seeing the videos I'm going to guess that there are a lot more variables involved than just the amp. The player, the guitar, the pickups, the effects, the speakers, the mic, the room, the post-processing, etc, are all important as well. Maybe you'll end up needing a specific guitar to get the bass response right, a certain type of pickup to nail the midrange, and a couple different kinds of speakers together to get just the right amount of chime in the mix.

I'm not trying to minimize the importance of the right amp though. I'm mostly trying to nudge the conversation in the direction toward seeing how much hands on experimentation you've already done. Have you already settled on your favorite guitar and speakers that you like better than everything else you've played on?

[Phil_S]

Without even seeing the videos I'm going to guess that there are a lot more variables involved than just the amp. The player, the guitar, the pickups, the effects, the speakers, the mic, the room, the post-processing, etc, are all important as well. Maybe you'll end up needing a specific guitar to get the bass response right, a certain type of pickup to nail the midrange, and a couple different kinds of speakers together to get just the right amount of chime in the mix.

Please forgive the tone of this post. It's going to be brutally frank. I mean this only in the kindest of ways and it is not to be unfriendly or rude or any such thing. I don't want to soft pedal my thoughts here because I want the message to be clear. I don't believe you can get what you want.

I was going to say something similar to the quoted text. One important tone shaping item omitted from this list is the pedal board. IMO, once you've got pedals in the mix, it becomes nearly impossible to duplicate the sound without actually seeing first-hand what is in the signal chain, how the knobs are set, what instrument, etc. I want to say, what xtian says, and it won't be answer A.

I don't know if you are a Jerry Garcia fan. I'm mentioning this because Jerry's sound is rather unique. If you troll youtube for a while, you should be able to find clips of Jerry sitting in with bands that aren't the Dead and on equipment that isn't his. Nevertheless, Jerry manages to squeeze his signature sound out of whatever he's using. This includes sometimes using some backup solid state POS amp that happened to be on stage. Frankly, I'm always amazed when I see this. This informs us that the player is likely the single biggest factor in the tonal palette.

If you want to have an amp cloned, go to the trouble of finding out what that amp actually is. Chances are there is a schematic and quite possibly a layout diagram that will allow any competent builder to make you such an amp. Go ahead. Do this. Remember to tell your builder that you'll take the amp, no matter the result, and that you'll never complain to him, "that wasn't the sound I was after." IMO, what you want is not that amp, you want to be that other player. That's nearly impossible, unless, of course, you are John Mayer, who, by the grace of god, is able to cop Jerry's tone. BTW, John manages to do that with a totally different guitar and amp setup. Tone is predominantly in the hands of the player, not the equipment.

There's nothing wrong with dreaming. But, if you are going to spend big money, you'll need a wake up call.

[jfs322]

No worries about being frank -- in fact, that's why I came to this forum, to get an honest, unbiased opinion from the experts! Some local techs -- not this one in particular, and not any particular builders on this site -- it seems will tell you whatever you want to hear just to get my business, and to be honest I'd much rather appreciate a tech who, like you all, is frank and upfront saying, "look, I can get you to x, but I can't get you to y because it depends on so many factors." I'd much rather respect that than a "oh yeah man I can totally nail that for you, just put down a deposit" and then I end up an amp that was very underwhelming because my expectations are unrealistic.

So that's why I wanted to come here -- to get a realistic gauge of what my expectations should be so that I don't spend cash on something that I'm not going to be happy with. I wasn't sure if amp building were something straightforward like: "oh, that amp has a certain chime, so that means I adjust this capacitor and that achieves that quality." If only it were that easy, I guess.

[gingertube]

And remember that even if you get the amp schematic exactly right a significant part of your sound is determined by speaker choice.

Cheers,
Ian

[danman]

I know for myself at least, any clips that I hear on Youtube rarely sound the same as sitting in the room with the actual amp. The best bet would be to do what the fellas have suggested...try out as many amps as you can and then let your builder know which ones you liked. Then he has a good starting point for designing the circuit.