Mallory 150 Series VS. Sprague Orange Drop Caps?

[lespaulplayer]

So I plan on building a JTM 45 build for my first amp build. The kit I'm going to order gives me a choice between those two caps. Would I notice any difference between the two, or is a cap just a cap?

[Structo]

The Mallory 150's I believe are a Mylar or polyester cap and a lot of people have used them in Marshall's.
Because originally Marshall used the Mustard caps, which are also polyester.

As far as Orange Drop caps go, you can't just say Orange Drop.

Recently Cornell Dublier took over the orange drop line from SBE.

http://www.cde.com/products/orange-drop/

Polyester, polypropylene, film/foil, metallized film, etc.

The polyester ones are the 6PS series we like in Dumbles.


Also for consideration, Sozo makes caps that are supposed to sound like the old Mustards.
Whether that is true or hype, they cost more than the average film capacitor.

Above all else, make sure the caps you select have the proper voltage rating because most devices nowadays don't operate at tube amp voltages.

[lespaulplayer]

Here are the Sprague "Orange Drop" caps that I'm talking about http://www.triodeelectronics.com/sprag71ordro.html

They are polypropylene.

What differences would I notice in tone with those compared to the Mallory 150 caps?

Here is the kit I'm looking at:

http://www.triodeelectronics.com/jtm45tubeampkit.html

[Structo]

To my ear, polyprop caps have more mid range and can kind of smear the tone, especially in a Marshall type amp.

Hi Fi guys seem to like polyprop for some reason.

But for guitar amps where we violate just about every fidelity rule there is, polyester seems to work well.
Mylar is the trade name for polyester.

If it were me, I would build it with the Mallory 150's then after you have got some hours on the amp, you can always experiment with different types caps.

Good luck on your build!

[Firestorm]

They'll all work (assuming proper voltage rating) and they'll all sound just a little different. The 150s are metalized polyester, where a thin layer of metal is deposited on one side of the film. They're physically smaller; they don't really have a discernable outside foil orientation; and they're self-healing (if they pinhole, the current vaporizes a tiny bit of the metal, eliminating the short).

6PS (below 1000v rating) are film and foil, the way most plastic caps used to be made. They're larger (which can contribute to parasitic coupling in some layouts); the outside foil does matter; and if they pinhole or deform internally (think old Astrons) they're shot.

I second the idea of building with 150s and then experimenting. I've found the biggest tonal differences to be in the tone stack, less difference in couplers.

[lespaulplayer]

Thanks for the advice and info guys! I'll go with your advice and go with the Mallory's. And you're right, if I feel the need to experiment later on I always can.

[wyatt]

All great advice, something else is the Mallory 150's are axial construction, which is much easier to use with a wide old Marshall-style turretboard.

[renshen1957]

To my ear, polyprop caps have more mid range and can kind of smear the tone, especially in a Marshall type amp.

Hi Fi guys seem to like polyprop for some reason.

But for guitar amps where we violate just about every fidelity rule there is, polyester seems to work well.
Mylar is the trade name for polyester.

If it were me, I would build it with the Mallory 150's then after you have got some hours on the amp, you can always experiment with different types caps.

Good luck on your build!

Hi Structo,

I agree entirely, the guitar amp is a tone generator. It should be euphonic (add something to the signal) instead of an undistorted linear amplification of the input signal.

The Hi-Fi crowd I hang out with generally think polyester/mylar caps smear the sound, while the polyprop is consider truer, but would be used in budget builds only. A metal foil (copper, silver, tin, etc) with different dielectric (teflon, wax paper, etc) in oil is currently in vogue. Cap and resistor rolling for some is a past time similar to tube rolling.

On the other hand some of the guitar amp builders complain that polyprop is "too Hi Fi" and produces a harsh or brittle tone with an amp.

And of course there are the "experts" (among these, a select few individuals that I respect very much) who say that it doesn't matter which cap one uses, the circuit design influences tone more than the caps used.

Price is relative, what is considered expensive and "MOJO" in Guitar amps (Sozo or Jupiter) is a low ball figure in Hi Fi.

The OD versus the 150 comments back and forth have been are:

Orange Drop caps (from the earliest to present) were originally not signal caps but for use in power supplies. Yes, Dumble used these (maybe the only higher voltage caps available to him).

There are one two individuals that get riled up when someone replaces the Ajax Blue Molded caps in Black Face Amps, whether these are polyester or polyprop.

When I started building the consensus was to use the polyester OD were the better caps for Fender Tweed builds, but the Malory 150 was favored by some to as a replacement for the yellow Astron molded caps which are polyester film and aluminum foil construction and preferred over the orange drops.

(Clark Amps were at one time using either Russian Wax Paper and Foil or Russian Paper in Oil Caps (from an ebay auction) for a while in their Tweed Clones.)

I have used Polystyrene, PIO, Wax Paper and Foil, Sozos, Original Mustards (when you could still get them cheap), and can honestly say that although these do make a difference caps are part of the equation of every parameter you can control, you must control (such as OT).

A speaker makes a greater impact on the overall sound of the amp in my opinion, but the little things can and do add up. Cap choices won't matter if you primarily play with fx distortion pedals in front of your amp. Guitar, chord, amp only players will notice the subtle to not so subtle effects.

Best regards,

Steve,

PS What ever the subject, Cryogenic tube treatments, Cap selection, resistors, chords, cables, Teflon wire versus PVC versus cloth, or OT transformers would with paper or plastic, more than enough comments appear from individuals who believe it doesn't make any difference, can't be worth the expense, or raise the spectre of "Mojo" or "Voodoo" parts.

It comes back to the old question, which sounds better (or worse) a plywood cheap Asian guitar played through a high end amp or a $5,000 played through a cheap amp.

[Leo_Gnardo]

I've been liking Mallory 150's for a long time. Before that used a similar Siemens style of cap. Both have a nice clear tone. I use 'em in hi fi gear as well as guitar/bass amps.

OD's - whichever - sound clacky to me. Sort of a 2KHz peak. They are very dependable though. In Rivera amps, there's a 0.01 uF 1000V box cap across the PT's hi voltage winding - the only undependable part in a Rivera - seen 'em blown up too often. I substitute a 1600V OD and never a further problem.

[jelle]

Another vote for the mallory 150s. They sound pretty vintage correct like the original mustard caps that were in the original marshalls.

It should work great!

jelle

[ampgeek]

As a related aside....any sonic or other differences between the 150 yellow jackets and the white covered version?

I recently bought a bunch for a JCM800 build and got white when I anticipated yellow. No big whoop....just unexpected.

Cheers,
Dave O.

[menger66]

I just finshed a jtm45 and used sozo for the .022, and then mojo dijon with 630v rating for the higher voltage and liked the way it came out, I also recently did a marshally build with orange drops through out and while the amp sounded good it had a little cleaner clearer vibe going on, a kind of you could hear more of the fingers on the strings note definition going on, lacking that smear coloration in the tone some of the guys talk about, There a clip over at 18watt.com of 3 amps (same circuit) with OD, mallory150 and sozo in each and the guy(I think he's a mod) does a nice clip demo of each amp with differnt caps, check it out, I'd go mallory over OD myself good luck mark

[lespaulplayer]

Another vote for the mallory 150s. They sound pretty vintage correct like the original mustard caps that were in the original marshalls.

It should work great!

jelle

Right on. I definitely want this thing to sound vintage correct!

I just finshed a jtm45 and used sozo for the .022, and then mojo dijon with 630v rating for the higher voltage and liked the way it came out, I also recently did a marshally build with orange drops through out and while the amp sounded good it had a little cleaner clearer vibe going on, a kind of you could hear more of the fingers on the strings note definition going on, lacking that smear coloration in the tone some of the guys talk about, There a clip over at 18watt.com of 3 amps (same circuit) with OD, mallory150 and sozo in each and the guy(I think he's a mod) does a nice clip demo of each amp with differnt caps, check it out, I'd go mallory over OD myself good luck mark

Cool. I will go check out that comparison video.

Man, I really like this forum. There are some very knowledgable people on here. I feel like I can learn a lot here by reading through some old threads before I start this build, which will be my first.

As far as my experience with amps goes, I have read and own 3 books on tube amp repair/building. I'm very handy with a soldering iron, and have worked on a few of my own amps. So I have a basic understanding of how a tube amp works, but when it comes to the tonal difference between different components such as caps, I still have a lot to learn because of my lack of first hand experience in using them. Thanks for all the info everyone!

[lespaulplayer]

Here is a link to that comparison video if anyone wants to check it out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUDhBnMS ... e=youtu.be

Gotta say, I do prefer the sound of those Mallory caps, although I do like the sound of the SoZo caps as well.

[M Fowler]

I built a 100w plexi with all Xicon polypropylene coupling caps and I really like the sound of that amp and so does it's owner.

I plan to built another one using the same caps.

I use a lot of M150 and Mojo Dijon caps in Marshall builds.