Amp for fiddle

[Smokebreak]

Not sure where to put this, but I've got a fiddle playin buddy that wants me to build an amp for him. He's a loud player that likes it dirty, but needs headroom too. Wants it bright, but not too bright, strong mids but not muddy...sound like a guitar player eh? He does Texas fiddle stuff to Charlie Daniels/roadhouse rockin stuff.
I'm thinking some Bassman circuit through a 15", but I'd thought I'd throw it out for discussion as some of you may have some experience with the matter.

[EtherealWidow]

Don't know if this would be enough headroom but a 6G3 without the tremolo might be cool. He could see which of the 4 channels he likes. Great clean and dirty from what I hear, never had the pleasure of playing one myself though.

[Reeltarded]

Two things to consider before you even start: Bow hiss and boom.

I would say plug him in to as many candidate amps as you can find to experiment with what gets close and then build based on what the outcome is.

Direct to a full-range rig with something of a quasi-parametric eq and some shelving on both ends.. that works. All the sweetness comes from the ranges we generally supress on a guitar amp. 700ish-1500Hz. All the nastiness comes from the stuff we love for guitar. Violin is a bitch!

In the end I think a good monitoring system serves him best, but there could be some interesting character in an amplified violin if you get crafty.

[JazzGuitarGimp]

I'm curious as to why you mention a 15" speaker. Seems the range of a violin doesn't extend even down to the range of a standard 6-string, A440 tuned guitar, no? I would think 10's might be a good choice. Of course, I might be missing something (wouldn't be the first time).

[Leo_Gnardo]

I'm curious as to why you mention a 15" speaker. Seems the range of a violin doesn't extend even down to the range of a standard 6-string, A440 tuned guitar, no? I would think 10's might be a good choice. Of course, I might be missing something (wouldn't be the first time).

Having done some electric fiddling in my earlier days, I found that the main problems were scratchy tone and a propensity to feed back in higher frequencies. Playing through a bass amp with 15 was a godsend. Automatically filtered out the problem frequencies and smoothed out the tone.

One of my customers is renowned fiddle/violinist Larry Packer. His original Boogie MkI combo is in for periodic servicing. He uses no overdrive, so I "fixed" the switch on the back of the first volume control so it can't accidentally find its way to extra unwanted gain. Don't know what pickup he's using, probably has been through a few, but this amp has served him well for decades of bluegrass, folk, jazz and rock playing.

Might look into whatever Papa John Creach was using. Always loved his tone! And his playing too!

[Phil_S]

In addition to comments offered here, I think this is an case where Google is your friend:
On pitch and frequency range:
basic info: http://www.fiddleforum.com/fiddleforum/ ... pic=4572.0
nice blog with quite a bit of detail: http://jansberg.blogspot.com/2013/02/vi ... art-l.html

Have you ever played a bowed instrument? I mean, not fooled around but actually did any serious playing. Pay close attention to the comments of the blogger where he says, "To add to the complexity, bowed instruments also have resonances coming from the body and bridge. These also translate into peaks in the frequency spectrum:"

The arched top and back along with the bridge and soundpost (inside under the bridge between top and bottom) are all in motion contributing to the sound and harmonic content. It is a far more complex instrument than an acoustic guitar. (I am a recovering 'cello player -- sold mine to pay for grad school in the '70's.)

This appears to be an interesting project. Keep us posted and good luck.

[rock_mumbles]

I help a local band with sound etc., one of the guitar players is my amp tester ...

The fiddle player has a nice ~100 year old German violin with a Barcus Berry bridge, he was using a Fishman Performer Pro (original ~$2k acoustic amp) it was OK ... last week he decided to try his guitar amp and wow what a difference in the right direction. Better tone, better presence in the mix, better dirty fiddle tone ... his 'guitar amp' is a late 60's Airline bass amp with a 15, it's what I call the 'dash board with courtesy lights' front panel. It has two 6L6's and is loud ...

[NickC]

I worked for about six years in a band with Barbara Schloss, violinist formerly with The Ordinaires http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ordinaires. She played through a Polytone Mini Brute combo amp with a 15" in it. Sounded good.

[Milkmansound]

I've been told that fiddle begs for 10s

Got a few customers who really like my 40W amp model for fiddle. Gives them enough headroom and still has the sweet spot.

I was recently approached by another fiddle player about a 15W single ended fiddle amp because he wants the extra touch sensitivity. I think you've got your work cut out for you - fiddle is a very expressive instrument and each player will have different needs. Most have a piezo pickup which will need a buffer either in the amp or on the floor.

[Leo_Gnardo]

I've been told that fiddle begs for 10s.

I think you've got your work cut out for you - fiddle is a very expressive instrument and each player will have different needs.

So far the 15" are carrying the vote. No matter. The second sentence I left in your quote - says everything. So true, and for guitar, bass & all the rest too. You have fiddlers that like your amps - all power to ya!

If there's a 10" version of ToneTubby's 25W "San Rafael" that would do it for me. Kinda like Bon Ami for the ears, "hasn't scratched yet." Smoooth.

FWIW also a fan of Jerry Goodman, with the Flock and Mahavishnu Orchestra. Way back when, he had his sound under control. To the point he could duel with the mighty Mahavishnu. Good golly, it was like stickin' your head in a running cement mixer! Caution, like Hendrick's, it's not for everybody. Could make ya - a little bit dizzy.

[JazzGuitarGimp]

I stand corrected! Good information here...

[Smokebreak]

Good golly you guys rock! I've definitely got my work cut out and this project is going to force my understanding of frequencies and response, something that has been lacking in my guitar amp building, I feel. For the sake of discussion, I'll ask a very broad question: how would I go about defining my range of frequencies, generally speaking? Pointing to Phil's links, how would I know that everything below 100hz needs to be cut? How would I implement this? I mean, I understand, to an extent, what parts of a circuit boost highs, cut bass, etc but how do I assume complete control, as far as understanding?

We played a gig together last night and he used a 100w SS/6L6 Peavey with the resonance way down. One of his biggest complaints is that his low G is way louder than any of his other strings. He also expressed that he likes his dirt to come from digging in with the bow. Very dynamic player.

Thanks for the references and thoughtful points, I'm going to go read now...

[Reeltarded]

More stages with less gain per stage is a way to hammer the dynamics that cause the G to pop out.. OTHER THAN working on the pickup system.

Instead of presence I would go with a cut control, then I would pick a corner frequency (higher than 100Hz actually) and make a bass cut control. Violin has such a short range. Looking more into the mid 300Hz range for the resonance to start and maybe that goes even up to 700Hz depending on what you come up with.

Killing it at any frequency is as easy as a cap and a resistor on the lowend, and a resistor and a cap on the highend. You know?

[Leo_Gnardo]

Good golly you guys rock! I've definitely got my work cut out and this project is going to force my understanding of frequencies and response, something that has been lacking in my guitar amp building, I feel. For the sake of discussion, I'll ask a very broad question: how would I go about defining my range of frequencies, generally speaking? Pointing to Phil's links, how would I know that everything below 100hz needs to be cut? How would I implement this? I mean, I understand, to an extent, what parts of a circuit boost highs, cut bass, etc but how do I assume complete control, as far as understanding?

We played a gig together last night and he used a 100w SS/6L6 Peavey with the resonance way down. One of his biggest complaints is that his low G is way louder than any of his other strings. He also expressed that he likes his dirt to come from digging in with the bow. Very dynamic player.

Miles mentioned pickup system - "doghouse" bass players have these same problems and selecting a pickup & placing it can have everything to do with string to string response. Also that 200-300 Hz is a fave resonant point for speaker cabs, speakers, rooms etc and frequently found "ditched" on house & monitor graphics.

Although the fundamental of the violin doesn't go below 200, I'd be wary of drying up the low end too much. Depending on how much scratchy you need on the top end, eq and trim hi's accordingly & select speakers. You can go from "Devil went down to Georgia" scratch to Jean Luc Ponty smooth, depending. 40 years ago, the first thing I learned was switch off any bright switch, and dial the treble down to nearly nothing.

As has been said, it's very player dependent. If you can patch a 1/3 octave graphic EQ into the FX loop of a regular amp, push the sliders around until you get a tone you like & base your tone design on where the graphic winds up.

[martin manning]

How about L.R. Baggs Para Acoustic or Venue DI? This fiddle player seems to think they are pretty good: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmeH4PvGHKw