"Paint By Numbers" Amp Building

[mcrracer]

I don't know if it is just me but it gets a little aggravating or maybe just frustrating that the number of guys who don't have a clue trying to build rather complicated amps. I mean I can see maybe building a Champ or other SE two tube amp with just a layout and a schematic...trying to match up parts with where they go and what they do. At least trying to learn something. But these guys who jump headlong into PP with three or more preamp tubes and various other involved circuitry strictly doing "paint by numbers" with nothing but a layout and then have no idea what's wrong when it doesn't work or it smokes upon startup. Maybe I am just from a different era when you were expected to learn about something before you tried to do it. Especially something that could potentially KILL you. I don't know about the rest of you experienced guys but many times I hesitate to offer troubleshooting advice to people when it is painfully obvious that they have no idea what they are doing. I am not slamming the new guys either. I am all for people learning our hobby, especially before all of us older guys die off and take their knowledge with them. My mentor just passed away this Summer...a World War II Veteran who was a radio man in the war. He gave me my intro into electronics and tubes back in the 1960s and I thanked him until his dying day for opening my eyes to what became a hobby, then a career and now back to a hobby again. I even offer tube amp building classes to guys who are interested in learning, basically for free. I am retired and thoroughly enjoy doing this. Maybe I am just being too critical. But I have noticed a lot of new guys come to the forums ask a few questions get a few answers and then we never hear from then again. I can't help but wonder...are they OK, Did they in their impatience kill or injure themselves? I guess I will just go watch some football and not think about it anymore. Please excuse my rant.

[playonit]

I kind of feel like this is directed at my last post... On my start up issue... while I am very new with only 4 builds to date ( all easy) I practice extreme caution.. While I am still learning to read schematics I have to rely on Layouts to understand the assembly.. When I have an Issue I rely on the internet, the few books I have and the forums to solve ( help me understand troubleshooting) the intricate nuances... Once I learn something I retain that info for other instances where it will come in Handy.... While I understand your frustration... I feel like a little wind has left my sail today.....

[oldmanmetal]

I live in Rockford, can I take some time for a class with you? One of the hardest things is finding someone who really knoes tubes to teach you. Most are too busy doing repairs, or just don't have the time. I don't come here that often, but would enjoy becoming very skilled at amp building, mods, and repair. Reading books, and looking online at videos is a big help, but not the same. I work on high end super auto Espresso machines for a living, so have some knowledge, and was in the Air Force. I have built a few low watters, single ended, and a Tweed Deluxe. I want to to build some higher wattage stuff and really learn the theory. Let me know, I am willing to pay to learn from a real pro.

[mcrracer]

As I said I was not slamming the new guys and it was not directed at anyone or I would have said so. I am direct and to the point. I am a member on a number of amp forums and this has been building up for a while. I do not profess to be an expert and I defer to quite a number of guys here who are far more knowledgeable than I am. I was just giving my opinion which is not the opinions of the owners of this site. I just know how I feel when I run into something I don't understand and I have had many years of training and experience. I go back to the books, the Net or ask questions. So there is nothing wrong with asking questions. I just see a whole lot of guys on all of the forums plus personal local experience with guys coming to me wanting to build XYZ amp which is far beyond their capabilities.

[xtian]

We have a Sticky with a lot of great info for people starting out and experienced builders, too:

https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.php?t=9023

[mcrracer]

I live in Rockford, can I take some time for a class with you? One of the hardest things is finding someone who really knoes tubes to teach you. Most are too busy doing repairs, or just don't have the time. I don't come here that often, but would enjoy becoming very skilled at amp building, mods, and repair. Reading books, and looking online at videos is a big help, but not the same. I work on high end super auto Espresso machines for a living, so have some knowledge, and was in the Air Force. I have built a few low watters, single ended, and a Tweed Deluxe. I want to to build some higher wattage stuff and really learn the theory. Let me know, I am willing to pay to learn from a real pro.

A fellow Air Force Vet! I am sure we can swap some war stories. PM me and I will be glad to help you, No Charge. Tues, Thurs and Saturdays are available. Mon, Weds and Friday I am in the hospital for most of the day so they can keep me alive for a few more days. Look forward to hearing from you.

[playonit]

As I said I was not slamming the new guys and it was not directed at anyone or I would have said so. I am direct and to the point. I am a member on a number of amp forums and this has been building up for a while. I do not profess to be an expert and I defer to quite a number of guys here who are far more knowledgeable than I am. I was just giving my opinion which is not the opinions of the owners of this site. I just know how I feel when I run into something I don't understand and I have had many years of training and experience. I go back to the books, the Net or ask questions. So there is nothing wrong with asking questions. I just see a whole lot of guys on all of the forums plus personal local experience with guys coming to me wanting to build XYZ amp which is far beyond their capabilities.

Thanks for the clarification.. My problem ( and I wish I had a mentor in the area) is that most books are over my head a bit. I have no electronics theory experience so a lot of the stuff in books and on the net is a little advanced for my understanding.. While where I'm at now compared to my first build is substantial I find asking questions on a forum works well for me.. I often don't pick up on the first response and have to reply and ask that they are more specific.. the ability on these boards to be able to drill down is huge for me... I have learned more here than anywhere else... I appreciate all the help....

Greg

[Bob-I]

Not enough can be said about this great document at ax84.com

http://ax84.com/p1/P1_Theory_Document.zip

Read it, ask questions when you don't understand and start with building something simple. Once it's running, tweak and adjust until you understand what changing each component does.

Then attack something more complex.

[Structo]

I am 53 years old soon to be 54.
I grew up loving electronics from an early age and my dad who worked for the local Ma Bell telephone company used to bring me junk home to play with.
Since I was a kid of the 60's, I remember all too well when a tube in the black and white TV set went bad. Dad would pull all the tubes and take them down to the local grocery store where they had a tube tester and new tubes stored below in a cabinet.
99 out of 100 times this is all it would take and we would go back and plug all them suckers in and the TV would work again.

I took electronics shop classes all the way through public school and then I enrolled in my local community college in their EE curriculum.
But, my heart wasn't into school and I dropped out after a year.
What I remember is, in the theory classes the instructor told us that transistors could do everything tubes can do only they can do it cheaper and cooler.

He did not address what a lot of us know, that tubes simply sound better.
I think we spent three days on tube theory, just in case something tube powered crossed our benches in the future.

I had a couple tube guitar amps when I was younger but I didn't get into modding them or anything. Early career and family things kept my hobby pretty much in the background.
So over the intervening years I have had to learn about tubes on my own and I have also gained a lot of knowledge from the guys here in this forum who are without a doubt some of the smartest tube heads I have come in contact with.

About five years ago I decided I wanted to get back into electronics and more importantly, tube electronics.
It is a dying art and as someone mentioned, the old guys are fading fast so it impresses me when I see young men getting interested in tubes.
There are a few of them here and I say keep up the good work.

I understand some of the frustration at the newbies and you can usually tell the ones that just want a quick answer from the ones that truly want to learn.
Everybody had to start somewhere.

I think we have discussed it before but someone a while back raised the question:
Does anybody here know of anybody first hand that actually died while working on a tube amp?
I'm sure many of us have been knocked on our asses over the years.
But, I don't think there is one of us that can say we have never been shocked when working on a piece of tube gear. It happens.
It serves to remind us of the power lurking inside these amps.

Sheesh, didn't mean to write a book!

I just want to encourage anybody wanting to learn tube electronics to first acquaint yourself with the safety rules and then you can experiment all you want.
Ask the questions after you have tried to find the answers on the internet which is where I have learned the most.

Ah the internet, what a marvelous source of information. I wish I had it when I was younger. You can find out about anything.

Stay safe my friends.

[mcrracer]

Hey Greg, Welcome to our madness! Feel free to ask whatever questions you need answered. Also feel free to PM or email me if you feel I can be of help. As I mentioned I am retired now with far more time than money. So I am available.

[Dr-Joned]

mcrracer

I feel pretty much the same way you do. There are a lot of individuals that really want to jump into building. There is so much on other sites about putting amps together in the paint by numbers scheme and having a working amp. I think this forum in particular, is not the best to start with. The Dumbos and Twecks are not the easiest to troubleshoot by far. I started learning at the age of 13 about electronics and have never slowed in my learning process in the last 35 years. It is nice to pickup something and get instant gratification, but unfortunately doesn't happen that way. Everyone wants to pickup a modified strat and play like EVH, but like I said, I doesn't happen that way.

I wish more of the younger crowd would take the time time to learn, by READING, then ask questions. Learn the basics and the basic Safety rules, study basic overall layouts, etc. You simply can't build a Messy Booger Rogue King in your first build. Start with a champ, like I did. My high school instructor taught me some about it, gave me some books and told me to READ! I was very proficent at building microprocessor boards and the other solid state devices of the late 70's, but I wanted to learn about TUBES! I soaked up every thermionic book I could find. I wish there was just one book to learn this subject, but I guess brain surgeons wished the same!

[Structo]

Yep, the bottom line is, how hungry are you for the knowledge that will allow you to first understand the operation of a tube amp and secondly, how to build one.

I hear guys always say that the person in question should build a Champ or other single ended amp.
Heck, I have told some noobs the same thing.

But, unless it is an amp that they will enjoy playing, it's kind of a waste of money to build. Sure they will learn as they go along but perhaps a better choice would be a Fender Deluxe amp like the 5E3 model.
It is a very respected amp and very useful.
Not that complex for a push/pull amp to build.

This is where a kit amp would be beneficial. Like a Weber kit.
I think they have improved the parts a bit from what they used to be like.

I realize it falls into the "paint by numbers" category, but as we all know, sourcing all the parts can be frustrating even for experienced builders and since you likely can't source all the parts from one vendor, the shipping costs add up quickly.

So if you are a newbie and are wanting to get your feet wet, I can suggest the Dave Hunter book, " Guitar Amplifier Handbook - Understanding Tube Amplifiers and Getting Great Sounds".
It takes you through each stage of a simple amp, explaining what each component does and how it all comes together to form the amplifier.
He even has an amp project in the book you can build.
There used to be a kit that went along with it but I'm not sure it is still available.
But it is still a good and worthwhile read.
http://www.amazon.com/Guitar-Amplifier- ... 087930863X

Some guys have difficulty learning from reading books. I understand that.
So the next best would be videos. Gerald Weber sells videos about amp building.
There is also a lot of YouTube videos on the subject.

You must become familiar with the components used in an amp.
What is a resistor and what does it do?
What is a capacitor and what does it do?
Etc.

I think the first thing we learned in school was Ohm's Law.
This is a set of formulas for voltage, current, resistance and power.
Simply stated as E=R x I where E is voltage in volts, R is resistance in ohms and I is current in amperes.

Just like anything, you must learn the basics first.

The bottom line is, are you hungry for the knowledge it will take for you to undertake an amp project?
Are you willing to take the steps necessary to learn?
If not, have somebody else build your amp or buy a commercially available amp.
There are literally thousands of them on the market.

[Cliff Schecht]

I'm with racer too. The amateurs biting off more than they can chew problem is also big in the DIY stompbox forums. A lot of newbies will attempt to tackle complex builds and wonder why it fails miserably. Some people learn this way, heck I sorta started this way, but there are better ways to get into a hobby than diving head first into something that is over your head. The first timers that do succeed are the ones that take the time to learn what they are doing and aren't afraid to stop and ask questions if needed. We all encourage that around here and love it when people post intelligible questions with well documented details of everything. It's a situation where the more you help us, the more we can help you.

What REALLY bugs me are the number of people out there who call themselves "designers" without fully understanding the circuits they are applying. This isn't as big of a problem in the amp building world, but I have bitched about this a lot over in the DIY stompbox world. It's a lot more dangerous with the stuff we do though, putting out an incorrect schematic or diagram could easily result in somebody injuring or killing themselves (especially if the builder doesn't understand what they are doing). MAKE SURE what you post is safe to build and document any peculiarities that the builder would need to know (like raising the heater to reduce the heater-cathode potential).

I lucked out in a lot of ways because my dad is a EE and really helped me get started with tubes. He was there when I had stupid questions and helped me figure out a lot of the basics and safety stuff. Being the ambitious one that I am, I decided to start with my own design and tweaked it endlessly for a good month or so. I had a lot of fun doing so but really did not know a lot of the safety requirements and I was still learning about biasing a tube stage correctly. Heck, the first four amps I built were of my own design, each one goofy in its own right, but I learned a lot doing so. The most important thing, as Joned stated, is to READ and understand what you are building. You don't have to be an electronics expert to build amps mind you, but having a basic understanding of how tubes work, how biasing affects performance and how to do things safely is absolutely critical if you want to build consistently good amps. I've been building since August 09 and have built over 20 amps now, many of which are original designs or my takes of classic designs. I still won't call myself an expert but I have learned a lot over the past year (thanks TAG ) and use a lot of the information I've learned in my professional endeavors with much success.

[xtian]

+1 on the ax84.com site and it's entry-level projects. Great stuff for beginners.

I hate their forum software! But you can't have everything.

Happy Spook Day!

[marcoloco961]

Not enough can be said about this great document at ax84.com

http://ax84.com/p1/P1_Theory_Document.zip

Read it, ask questions when you don't understand and start with building something simple. Once it's running, tweak and adjust until you understand what changing each component does.

Then attack something more complex.

This is very good advice.

Also check out Merlin Blencoe's site.
http://www.freewebs.com/valvewizard/index.html
It is very nicely done, helping you to understand how an amp works and how to start to design your own amps. It has helped me to start to understand many things that were confusing to me initially.