Reactive Load Question

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Cathode Ray
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Re: Reactive Load Question

Post by Cathode Ray »

martin manning wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:28 pmI wouldn’t go there. It’d be easier to adjust the value of the 200u capacitor to move the peak. To make up an alternate value, paralleling two caps would be the way to go. For example if the peak is at 80Hz and you want to move it to 90Hz, the new capacitance would be smaller by the square of the frequency ratio, a factor of (80/90)^2, so 158u. You’d have to measure the caps too, since the tolerances are quite high.
Correct me if I wrong, guys...

But it looks to me like winding more of the same gauge wire onto the reactive inductor (enough to halve the inductance from 20mH to 10mH) would increase the resonant peak of the circuit to 112Hz - more in line with the expected resonant peak of a closed-back 4x12 cab ?
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Re: Reactive Load Question

Post by martin manning »

Adding turns will increase the inductance, proportional to the number of turns squared. Removing about 30% of the turns would be the way to halve the inductance. Easier to reduce the cap to 100u, IMO.
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Cathode Ray
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Re: Reactive Load Question

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martin manning wrote: Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:53 pm Adding turns will increase the inductance, proportional to the number of turns squared. Removing about 30% of the turns would be the way to halve the inductance. Easier to reduce the cap to 100u, IMO.
So, would the inverse be true ?

Adding 30% more turns of wire would double the inductance ?


Thanks Martin :!:
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martin manning
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Re: Reactive Load Question

Post by martin manning »

Cathode Ray wrote: Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:50 pm
martin manning wrote: Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:53 pm Adding turns will increase the inductance, proportional to the number of turns squared. Removing about 30% of the turns would be the way to halve the inductance. Easier to reduce the cap to 100u, IMO.
So, would the inverse be true ? Adding 30% more turns of wire would double the inductance ?
No, you’d need to add 41% more turns (square root 2). To be precise, halving it actually needs 29% fewer turns, (square root 2)/2.
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Cathode Ray
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Re: Reactive Load Question

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martin manning wrote: Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:26 am
Cathode Ray wrote: Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:50 pm
martin manning wrote: Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:53 pm Adding turns will increase the inductance, proportional to the number of turns squared. Removing about 30% of the turns would be the way to halve the inductance. Easier to reduce the cap to 100u, IMO.
So, would the inverse be true ? Adding 30% more turns of wire would double the inductance ?
No, you’d need to add 41% more turns (square root 2). To be precise, halving it actually needs 29% fewer turns, (square root 2)/2.
Wow, thanks Martin :!:

I got my new Fluke 115 here, and I'm going to go thru this graph plot and get some data - see where this peak actually is.
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Cathode Ray
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Re: Reactive Load Question

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** I was careful to re-adjust the input signal to exactly 2.0 VAC with each new signal, as these are coming from random YouTube clips and vary in strength. **

1Khz = 1.27 VAC across the 16.4 Ohm resistive load

500Hz = 1.84 VAC across the 16.4 Ohm resistive load

250Hz = 1.93 VAC across the 16.4 Ohm resistive load

125Hz = 1.6 VAC across the 16.4 Ohm resistive load

90Hz = 0.82 VAC across the 16.4 Ohm resistive load

85Hz = 0.7 VAC across the 16.4 Ohm resistive load

80Hz = 0.64 VAC across the 16.4 Ohm resistive load

70Hz = 0.77 VAC across the 16.4 Ohm resistive load

60Hz = 1.1 VAC across the 16.4 Ohm resistive load

So, if I understand... this device has a resonant peak of 80Hz, which is what software predicted.


Thank you!
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martin manning
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Re: Reactive Load Question

Post by martin manning »

Nice work. Using that data here is the calculated Zin, tabulated against the prediction, where I’ve added 1.55 ohms series resistance to the 20 mH inductor to bring the peak Zin down to the 51 ohms you measured. That adds damping, which reduces the peak with a minimal shift In frequency (i.e. it’s still 80 Hz). The agreement looks pretty good, and the as-measured resonant peak does seem to be at 80 Hz. To bring the high end down you would have reduce the size of the 500u inductor. You can of course make these same measurements on a 4x12 cab and see what that looks like.

PS For something different I’m calculating and plotting using the iOS based Numbers spreadsheet. It’s not Excel, but pretty nice for a small-screen tool.
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Last edited by martin manning on Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Cathode Ray
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Re: Reactive Load Question

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Nice to see it in a graph :!:


These results have got me thinking about the basic function (or purpose) of a reactive load/line out:

To the amp it presents something for the output tubes to "push into" and a certain amount of energy is being reflected back into output transformer due to the impedance varying with input signal. The guitar speakers in my 4x12 cab have a resonant frequency of 75Hz.

So the device having a resonant peak of 80Hz is presenting a close approximation of the speaker load to the amp.

The raw signal coming out of a reactive (or resistive for that matter) load is really unusable. In the DAW it sounds like a fizzy, weak distorted signal.

It isn't until you add impulse responses in the DAW that take that raw signal and run it through say.. a Marshall 1960A cab with one or two mics on it in various orientations to a speaker.

Now, these IR's have their own resonant frequency. I guess what I'm wondering is, is it perhaps 'correct' for the reactive load to have a resonant freq that is more in line with the speaker(s), rather than taking into account the speakers being installed in a closed-back cabinet and thus effecting the resonant peak ?

Not sure if my line of thinking here is making sense. :?

I guess I'm visualizing a reactive load/line out as a device that shows one thing to the amp, and quite another to the DAW thru the line out, and once the work of :

1. loading down the amp with a dummy load
2. providing a close approximation of a speaker load for the output section of the amp to push into to create the correct "feel" of the amp while playing it.

at this point the reactive load goes, "my work here is done" :lol:

The impulse responses of cabinets, speakers and microphone take over shaping the sound, timbre and tone.


Hope this makes sense, and would appreciate any and all thoughts on the matter.
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Re: Reactive Load Question

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The load is doing pretty much what it should be doing. Where did you get the line out circuit? Seems like the problem is with the signal you’re sending out from there.
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Re: Reactive Load Question

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martin manning wrote: Sun Oct 28, 2018 1:50 pm The load is doing pretty much what it should be doing.
I agree. I've been recording with it for about a year and have been very happy with the sound and the feel of it.
martin manning wrote: Sun Oct 28, 2018 1:50 pmWhere did you get the line out circuit? Seems like the problem is with the signal you’re sending out from there.
The line-out is based on a little cylindrical Jensen audio transformer and a pot.

As far as I know, this would be considered "normal operation" of a reactive or resistive load signal - meaning the way I described the raw signal.

If not, then I may have either an error in the schematic, or something else to learn here. :oops:
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Re: Reactive Load Question

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Well one thing I noticed about the line out schematic is that the 68k resistor is just for show because it’s shorted out ;^). The transformer you are using is not really intended for this application. I would use this one, and wire it per the second schematic shown in the project app notes. https://www.parts-express.com/jensen-jt ... --246-0105
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Cathode Ray
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Re: Reactive Load Question

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martin manning wrote: Sun Oct 28, 2018 3:22 pm Well one thing I noticed about the line out schematic is that the 68k resistor is just for show because it’s shorted out ;^). The transformer you are using is not really intended for this application. I would use this one, and wire it per the second schematic shown in the project app notes. https://www.parts-express.com/jensen-jt ... --246-0105
I thought that schematic came from the data sheet supplied with the audio transformer, but I could be mistaken.

I've had that little transformer for many years, and used it in many version of load boxes.

Looking at the schematic I posted, my understanding was that 68K resistor was only in use when nothing was plugged into the line out jack.. though I will admit I still don't fully understand why it is there. :oops:
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Re: Reactive Load Question

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omg
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Signatures have a 255 character limit that I could abuse, but I am not Cecil B. DeMille.
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Cathode Ray
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Re: Reactive Load Question

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Reeltarded wrote: Sun Oct 28, 2018 3:47 pmomg
RT, I don't understand. :?:
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Re: Reactive Load Question

Post by Cathode Ray »

Hey guys, from looking at the specs on the transformer I currently have and the one Martin is recommending, it looks like the one I have is more intended for giving you a balanced XLR type connector as your line out :?:

Would this be correct ?

The one Martin is linking is designed more for the actual way I am using it in this load ?


Thanks!
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