2013 12AX7 Tube Comparison

[M Fowler]

My wife can tell you about cheap inferior China metal used in the commerical and residential electrical products. It was so bad she found every U.S. manufacturer she could for electrical fittings and stocks their products.

I would imagine materials in china tubes is the same.

Mark

[renshen1957]

Good all around gents. I'm also a long time Magic/Ruby customer but have to keep eyes open for "second sources." CE has worked out OK but always looking for other good ones. Too many times I've been disappointed by finding the "same old stuff" for higher prices.

Hi,

I've enjoyed the discussion, always on the look out for other sources beside the "usual suspects." Yes, the audiophile market is a two edged sword, they are keeping New Sensor and the high quality end of the Chinese market (the Chinese are very big into Western Electric Tubes) open for business. The Guitar market doesn't come near to supporting it, especially when Marshall, Fender, and Peavy only want low price tubes.

On the other hand, every new discovery of "THE" NOS stock tube, then the supply instantly is gobbled up and the price sky rockets. Every wonder why 5751s jumped in price? Not because it was the SRV tube, it was discovered the same way the Tung Sol 6650 was and later the 6L6G tubes, etc.

Best regards,

Steve

[Firestorm]

There are just not that many separate entities manufacturing vacuum tubes (and keeping track of who's who is beginning to feel like it must have for the Feds tracking the Gotti family). There's two in Russia, with one of them out of the receiving tube business it seems, JJ (plus a handful of specialised plants that do audiophile stuff like 300B and some very arcane tubes), Shuguang and psvane (which used to source stuff from Shuguang, but have acquired their own plant). There are a few really, really small guys doing who knows what. So no matter what name is on the tube, it originated in Saratov, or JJ, or Shuguang or psvane.

The question is (as it always was), does the brand stand for something? Telefunken GZ34s were made by Mullard and maybe just a tad "nicer" than the Mullard branded ones. Amperex tubes in certain years might have come from any number of Philips plants. But everything passed some meaningful kind of QC.

Nowadays, I fear, as long as a tube passes current, it's for sale.

Hi,

The typical Vacuum tube is built to price point. This is true of many products imported from China.

Not to be picky, TJ Full Music isn't associated with Shuguang or Psvane. Similar to Psvane and the former Shuguang Treasure division, their niche market is Audiophile Tubes.

I agree that many private labels source from either Shuguang/Psvane or TJ Full Music.

There used to be GuiGuang Factory near Guandong (Canton) established in 1960′s in the city of Liuzhou as military factory for south west region of China. It was closed permanently in 2000. In 2006, a group of investors bought out all the equipment of Guiguang and moved them to just outside of Guangzhou in Guangdong province, hoping to capitalize on the highly booming hi-fi tubes market. from 2006 until it was bought out by Psvane in 2011. New Sensor isn't the only one that's doing it.

"Tianjin Full Music was established in 1998, and it was located in the No.3 Haimen Road, Hebei District, Tienjin, China. The Manager of the factory is Mr. Liu Zhensheng who graduated from the vacuum tube technology of TsinghuaUniversity, he had worked at the development research and management as well as manufacture of the vacuum tube for many years in the Beijing vacuum tube factory (think NOS Military tubes), and accumulated the rich experiences in this area. The design and technique of all of products –vacuum tubes are from himself personally, and the company has owned the technical personals in the enrich professional knowledge , the well-trained and skillful workers."

The company produces 6SL7 and 6SN7 as well as 12ax7, 12AT7, 12AU7, and the Number Tubes that Western Electric used to make.

Their 12AX7 is based on the CV4004 tubes of the UK. The tube doesn't look like the Shuguang (typical Chinese 12AX7 tube).

Shuguang is in Hunan, China, total separate entity in a different provence.

http://www.shuguangelec.com/en/honor.asp

Best regards,

Steve,

PS I have been asked on a number of occasions by overseas Chinese business men why American companies always want to purchase the cheapest, lowest quality manufactured materials from China, (the word would be if translated would be equivalent to "Shit.").

I explain that the US is not Japan (the hardest consumers to please were quality is concerned), and the average American is barely getting by, (99% aren't rich) and the American consumer is rather gutless about complaining or returning substandard tools, nails, etc because it's cheaper to buy a new POS tool, nail, toaster, etc.

Also American Corporations are more concerned about ringing dividends for their stock holders rather than having pride in producing (no longer) or offering a quality product in the US. The CEO, Presidents, and VPs want to be paid enormous amounts of money in salaries compared to their employees. (They shake their heads, but all Americans are rich!).

Not that Protoc Silex Toaster when they were made in the US were any good, 3 broke under warranty, two of these caused kitchen fires.

Thanks for that info. I hadn't heard of TJ Full Music. The Chinese apparently had more tube factories than the Russians and kept them up longer so there may be even more manufacturers able to emerge.

The Chinese are funny: they obviously can do the "cheap as possible, cut every corner" thing, but they can also the "spare no expense, make it perfect" thing. You need a local agent to make that last one happen.

[renshen1957]

My wife can tell you about cheap inferior China metal used in the commerical and residential electrical products. It was so bad she found every U.S. manufacturer she could for electrical fittings and stocks their products.

I would imagine materials in china tubes is the same.

Mark

Hi Mark,

You generally get what the US Corporation won't pay for in tubes. I guess it's the old you can buy high quality oats for big bucks or pay pennies after the oats have passed through the horse. It was what I posted earlier, most US companies want low ball prices for maximum profit margins.

I have received as presents very high quality clothes, electronics, (I haven't thought to ask for vacuum tubes, yet), power tools from relatives (by marriage) from China, which they payed good deal of money for (when converted into US dollars).

I am not saying that you won't find avarice among the Chinese. They invented avarice. Witness the Melamine scandal, the Anti freeze in the toothpaste, and the melamine in the dog/cat food are examples.

China executed the former head of its state food and drug administration, Zheng Xiaoyu, for dereliction of duty and taking 6.5m yuan (about US $1 million) in bribes from the manufacturers of substandard medicines that had been blamed for several deaths. Zheng, who headed the agency between 1998 and 2005, had become the symbol of the quality control crisis in China's trade arising from the export of tainted goods – for some of which the authorities in Beijing had blamed him.

Shuguang must have rejects or seconds (thirds) that are sold to a secondary market, and the purchasers sells bargains. Ebay.com in the US are one outlet.

The Chinese NOS military tubes are very, very good. The TJ Full music tubes use quality material.

Psvane purchases aviation/aerospace/military alloys. Does this sound familiar, "After 3 years of testing under extreme conditions, Shuguang has successfully adopt such technology in vacuum tube constructing to achieve directional solidification and single crystallization, greatly improving the ability of electron emission and electron current stability." My best guess, cryogenic pre-treated alloys. The Shuguang Treasure series (50th anniversary) were popular enough (and expensive) to give birth to Psvane which is into its second generation of tubes.

Best regards,

Steve

[Leo_Gnardo]

There used to be GuiGuang Factory near Guandong (Canton) established in 1960′s in the city of Liuzhou as military factory for south west region of China. It was closed permanently in 2000. In 2006, a group of investors bought out all the equipment of Guiguang and moved them to just outside of Guangzhou in Guangdong province, hoping to capitalize on the highly booming hi-fi tubes market. from 2006 until it was bought out by Psvane in 2011. New Sensor isn't the only one that's doing it.

"Tianjin Full Music was established in 1998, and it was located in the No.3 Haimen Road, Hebei District, Tienjin, China. The Manager of the factory is Mr. Liu Zhensheng who graduated from the vacuum tube technology of TsinghuaUniversity, he had worked at the development research and management as well as manufacture of the vacuum tube for many years in the Beijing vacuum tube factory (think NOS Military tubes), and accumulated the rich experiences in this area. The design and technique of all of products –vacuum tubes are from himself personally, and the company has owned the technical personals in the enrich professional knowledge , the well-trained and skillful workers."

The company produces 6SL7 and 6SN7 as well as 12ax7, 12AT7, 12AU7, and the Number Tubes that Western Electric used to make.

Their 12AX7 is based on the CV4004 tubes of the UK. The tube doesn't look like the Shuguang (typical Chinese 12AX7 tube).

I'm gettin' a heckuva education here Monday morning and not even done with the first coffee. THANK YOU Steve!

Up until now I thought ALL well 99.9% of Chinese product came from Shuguang. There's a story about Magic/Ruby having a small shop where their 5AR4 is made (and perhaps a couple other varieties) so there's the 0.1% remaining. Well, Shuggie isnt' the only producer, that's a wake up call... Can you suggest any US sources for the Tianjin Full Music products?
PSVane is the "hi quality" branch of Shuguang now, or a separate entity?

I remember a couple years ago Magic/Ruby offered a 12AX7 that didn't look like the typical Shuggie, but they weren't all that good (tried some myself & no joy) and stopped offering them.

Wonder if there were any more students in the "Tsinghua University vacuum tube program" and when it existed. When I started electronics courses 1972, tubes were considered hopelessly antiquated and not even mentioned.

I really appreciate your explanations of the China vac. tube situation. LG

[M Fowler]

http://www.thetubestore.com/Tubes/Northern-Electric

Northern Electric had a rich history of producing high quality audio products and vacuum tubes in Canada. The original owners, Bell Canada and Western Electric, formed this company to produce telephone and audio equipment including vacuum tubes. Western Electric licensed their designs, processes, and technology to Northern Electric for the first fifty years of their production.

We are now re-introducing this classic brand and bringing to you the highest quality audio tubes possible. We are working together with a small, foreign tube manufacturer to produce exceptional high quality versions of common audio tubes. And while this manufacturer is not well known, they are the “Ferrari” of tube manufacturing and design.

The manufacturer’s immaculately clean factory houses state of the art and high precision equipment. All of the design and production is overseen by a living legend in tube design, Zhe Shen Liu.

Upon arrival in Canada, each tube is rigorously tested in a three-stage process for noise and electrical functionality. Tubes passing this are then printed and packaged for sale with an extended 6-month warranty.

We are excited and pleased to present our new reissue Northern Electric audio tubes.


http://www.thetubestore.com/Tubes/Shuguang

Shuguang has been around since 1958 producing vacuum tubes and have made huge strides in quality in the past number of years. With updated equipment and quality control improvements they are now one of the worlds largest tube manufactures supplying many of the OEM amplifier manufacturers and most of the boutique tube brands from around the world.

[JazzGuitarGimp]

I've been curious about the rebirth of the Northern Electric brand. But at $58 for a 12AX7, I'm not sure I want to jump head first into the water. Anyone tried them?

[M Fowler]

I put 3 preferred series in my Express rather then try finding good NOS tubes.

http://www.thetubestore.com/Tubes/Preferred-Series

Preferred Series tubes combine the best of everything that thetubestore.com has to offer. All of our years of experience in testing, rating, listening, and customer knowledge are brought together for the best tube value we can provide. These are tubes that consistently provide us with the most positive customer feedback, have the best build quality, and which we subject to our most exhaustive testing yet.


Only a few tubes will be part of the Preferred Series. Here's how a tube qualifies:

We choose tube models with great customer feedback, build quality, and performance.

We source them directly and pay a premium to meet our specifications for build, materials, and test results.

Then we digitally test every single one and select them to insure a consistently extraordinary experience out of the box.

Preferred Series tubes are a guaranteed upgrade to your sound. These are tube lines not seen in original equipment.

Extended Warranty: All Preferred Series tubes carry a 6 month extended warranty.

[Milkmansound]

you get that same warranty at Ruby for 1/2 the price

I have had good luck with Ruby but only because I buy in large quantity and then reject and return what fails. I find that 90% of them are good but the other 10% fail within the first few minutes of use. When it fails, its usually bad right from the start and I put it in my RMA pile.

Many Ruby tubes that I installed are still going strong after 2+ years in some of my customers Milkman amps. For the price I think they are great, but if you are expecting perfection you can forget about it.

[Firestorm]

you get that same warranty at Ruby for 1/2 the price

I have had good luck with Ruby but only because I buy in large quantity and then reject and return what fails. I find that 90% of them are good but the other 10% fail within the first few minutes of use. When it fails, its usually bad right from the start and I put it in my RMA pile.

Many Ruby tubes that I installed are still going strong after 2+ years in some of my customers Milkman amps. For the price I think they are great, but if you are expecting perfection you can forget about it.

Hey Tim,

So if you want an amp to sound absolutely killer, what do you put in it? Or do you design around generic? I don't think Fender cared (beyond due diligence) but RCA ain't makin' em anymore.