Santana Amp KIT? anyone?

[rdjones]

For the end, some of my self designed and built amps below in the mid '90s :

http://img7.hostingpics.net/pics/548542IMG_0006.jpg
http://img7.hostingpics.net/pics/21327IMG_0005.jpg
http://img7.hostingpics.net/pics/960505IMG_3148.jpg
http://img7.hostingpics.net/pics/93057IMG_3993.jpg

A+!

Nice stuff, Thanks for sharing.

reddog

[anthony8i]

anthony8i,

What says Structo is absolutely true : a wise advice you must consider really if you never worked on tube circuits, even if you seem very confident in you skills (you must !)...

If you want to have an idea and the guidelines about the job I have done on my MKIIA Boogie, please go to that link/thread below : you'll find a description résumé in page 4.

http://forum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.ph ... 4&start=30

I don't want to be dogmatic nor boasting at all, but I am 47 and I built and service tube amps for 30 years. I have all the requested measuring equipment, etc... I just want to mean that working on a tube amp is not improvisation if you want it to work properly, as you expected, and not only be "self-satisfied by your more or less rough assembly".

That mean relying on my help to debug your Boogie is taking risks for you, nonobstant if I do my best to help you at distance. I could use my 30-year knowledge to sort out surprises and problems, but you understand easily that it is not "instant transferable via the web".

Please read all the 5 pages of the mentioned above topic, and for sure, you will undertstand what I mean.

Having said that...

some of my fav albums would have to be MOONFLOWER, and LOTUS! its a smooth but gritty tone with lots of sustain!

For sure the MKI and the MKIIA are the best choice to do that ! The IIB too, but less for the later MKIIC and MKIII, more aggressive and designed differently.

so your saying to get a MKIIA instead of a MK1?

The advantage of the MKIIA over the MKI is that it has dual channel plus booster operation : you can dial a great deep clean tone and jump into Santana tone lead, and even activate the booster to boost the sustain, not the aggressivity (pure magic, trust me). This artefact makes the MKIIA more "controllable" over the MKI, but that's all !

so how much tweaking did you to do to that amp? its beautiful by the way!

You'll find the guidelines in the thread I spoke about above - it will show you the scope of the job.

if I do find the that boogie amp; would you be able to help me with the tweaks?

Distant assistance can help, of course, but it has its limitations, particularly with "non-specialists". See if you understand all that I wrote in my thread, at first... It would be a good starting point !

so your telling me to get a MKIIA because its cheaper than a MK1?

If you find a MKI at affordable price, well go on, yes ! for you - beginner in tube circuits - it is a bit simpler than the MKIIA due to its "single channel" operation. I would say that sometimes you find MKI and IIA in the same ballpark, but usually the MKI brings more because it is Santana-related.

Nonetheless, MKI and MKIIA really have the Santana tone - If it's what you are searching, like I was - you won't be disappointed, trust me...

For the end, some of my self designed and built amps below in the mid '90s :

[img:640:480]http://img7.hostingpics.net/pics/548542IMG_0006.jpg[/img]
[img:640:480]http://img7.hostingpics.net/pics/21327IMG_0005.jpg[/img]
[img:640:480]http://img7.hostingpics.net/pics/960505IMG_3148.jpg[/img]
[img:640:480]http://img7.hostingpics.net/pics/93057IMG_3993.jpg[/img]

A+!

sweet!! I will take your advice!! now I need to search for that MKIIA! thanks for sharing good stuff man! appreciate all the great help! your amps look killer! I will try to look for that post to gain more info! thanks again!

[leadfootdriver]

Great thread!

[xtian]

If you want to have an idea and the guidelines about the job I have done on my MKIIA Boogie, please go to that link/thread below : you'll find a description résumé in page 4.

http://forum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.ph ... 4&start=30

Greetings. Your amp build looks awesome. I see that you're a regular on Grailtone, but I'm glad you've joined us here, because I just sold my Mark IV, and won't be visiting Grailtone much.

Cheers!

[Lynxtrap]

I've attached some short clips of the C-tone Overtone Special 50W. It's not meant to be The Santana Tone I just thought I'd record something to see if this amp could get you closer to what you're looking for. This is not the kind of sound you usually associate with these amps, nor is it the sound I'm using it for. But anyway...

It's a Gibson Vegas Highroller through a Maxon compressor into the OTS, direct out from a Hotplate attenuator. I used software speaker simulation (plexi-type cab) and added delay and reverb. Don't know who made the backing tracks.
You can easily achieve feedback with this amp on fairly low sound levels, so I tried to get some for good measure:)

Those strange bubbly sounds are from a bad mp3 converter

[anthony8i]

I've attached some short clips of the C-tone Overtone Special 50W. It's not meant to be The Santana Tone I just thought I'd record something to see if this amp could get you closer to what you're looking for. This is not the kind of sound you usually associate with these amps, nor is it the sound I'm using it for. But anyway...

It's a Gibson Vegas Highroller through a Maxon compressor into the OTS, direct out from a Hotplate attenuator. I used software speaker simulation (plexi-type cab) and added delay and reverb. Don't know who made the backing tracks.
You can easily achieve feedback with this amp on fairly low sound levels, so I tried to get some for good measure:)

Those strange bubbly sounds are from a bad mp3 converter

great tone! I gonna try to get that from my concert; well I tried but its way loud. i'm gonna keep trying! thanks for the clip and your time to do all this!

[Colossal]

Great tone and playing Lynx! FWIW, PBS was running a pledge drive and had Santana Montreux 2011 on. Nice closeups of his playing and a good sampling of his tone! He knows how to milk a note. I saw him at the Hollywood Bowl probably 20 years ago. He definitely used the sweet spot he had marked out for himself to bathe in stage volume. He got endless sustain in the zone.

[Colossal]

double post

[Lynxtrap]

great tone! I gonna try to get that from my concert; well I tried but its way loud. i'm gonna keep trying! thanks for the clip and your time to do all this!

Thanks. I did it out of own interest as well. Just curious to see if this kind of sound could be squeesed out of the OTS. Well I guess it can, since Santana is known to play a Dumble now and then.
The initial question was, is there a "santana kit". I tried to say there is one that gets close.

[anthony8i]

double post

? have your read both posts?

[Colossal]

double post

? have your read both posts?

Huh? I don't follow you. Sometimes the board hiccups and posts your reply twice. I changed the contents of the second one to say double post since it has no value.

[tubelectron]

Hi & Thanks to All,

@Lynxtrap :

I'd rather say that this is the tone of a "modern sounding amp, tight and controlled", exactly in the vein of a RIVERA M-60 or 30-12, just to mention the ones that I had in hands recently for service, but indeed it's not the tone of the MKI and IIA (B) Boogies, that I would qualify as "touch-sensitive"...

Unfortunately I do not have the gear and the time to devote to make such a well-played and excellent-sounding sample as yours +++ !

@anthony8i :

Lynxtrap is right : The Ceriatone is something like a "Dumble Kit" AFAIK, but I never had one in hands for the moment... So as Mr Santana seems to use now mainly Dumbles, it would be "the alternative kit", probably more versatile in tone than a MKI or IIA, but clearly not the same.

With the exception of the PCBs sold through a russian seller via eBay, I do not know the existence of a Boogie kit, but by experience, building a point-to-point handwired Boogie MKI is nonetheless possible. It would be more complicated with a dual-channel MKIIA, where unwanted interstage coupling may occur. Beware... designing and wiring tube amp knowledge is compulsory in any ways, because it is not a kit !

One trick about the MKIIA :

On most amps (and later Boogies like MKIIC, MKIII) the reverbered signal source is taken after the channel switching. I mean : when clean channel = clean reverbered signal, when lead channel = overdriven reverbered signal.

On a MKIIA (and B, not C), the reverbered signal source is taken before channel switching. I mean : clean, overdriven or boosted channel = always clean reverbered signal.

Overdriven reverbered signal usually always lack of deepness, have blunt decay or sound weak and metallic, which makes it rather unpleasant sounding, at least to my taste, as I use always reverb (like Mr Santana on its early well-known works, by the way).

You may know that the reverb of the MKI and for sure of the MKIIA is certainly one of the best-sounding : pure, smooth, even-sounding, non-metallic deepness and decay.

So when you play in lead mode on the MKIIA you still have that clean reverb... Huge difference in tone, trust me ! It would be the same as if you played a Princeton Reverb set to obtain an overdriven sound : you would have overdrive, some sustain and feedback and a clean deep reverb behind, not the common fuzzy metallic reverb sound usually heard...

The MKIIA and B are the only amps I know to have that distinctive reverb fearture, but of course, if you barely or never use reverb, it's way less important.

@xtian :

Greetings. Your amp build looks awesome. I see that you're a regular on Grailtone, but I'm glad you've joined us here, because I just sold my Mark IV, and won't be visiting Grailtone much.

In fact, there is not much technical forums dedicated to designing and building tube amps... Grailtone is not, but proved very usefull and kind for finding advices and infos about Boogies, and on my amp in particular. But when these guys front problems, they usually call or send their amps to Mesa, period... Not much technical, unfortunately.

These times, I am trying to save time for re-designing the smallest amp on my previous post pictures - a mini-Boogie MKIIA with 40 to 60W. Surprisingly, the trials I have made proved very successful, sounding big despite the compact size, but the problem is to enter all the stuff in a such small package : that needs accuracy and precision in the design of the chassis' layout, in order to avoid parasitic couplings, oscillations, vibrations... I am on it...

A+!

[Lynxtrap]

Hi & Thanks to All,

@Lynxtrap :

I'd rather say that this is the tone of a "modern sounding amp, tight and controlled", exactly in the vein of a RIVERA M-60 or 30-12, just to mention the ones that I had in hands recently for service, but indeed it's not the tone of the MKI and IIA (B) Boogies, that I would qualify as "touch-sensitive"...

Unfortunately I do not have the gear and the time to devote to make such a well-played and excellent-sounding sample as yours +++ !

A+!

Yes, I think it would be tighter and more controlled compared to a 70's Boogie. Although I tried to show some of the dynamics by turning down the guitar volume in one part of the clip.
Anyway, it might be in the vein of Rivera, but it certainly is in the vain of Dumble. That is, according to the knowledgable folks on this forum, who have devoted much effort to demask the circuit (Ceriatone and certain others have chosen to capitalize on those efforts, but that's another story. C-tone just happens to sell them as kits). Over in the Dumble part of the forum, there is probably more info on Santanas particular amp. At least there are links to clips of him playing it.

I only devoted half an hour of fun to make the audio clip

[skeezbo]

Just Sayin...
Weber has a kit called a Halle that seems to be inspired by a Dumble HRM.
It might be something to consider if you want that Santana singing overdrive in a kit form, but I have never heard one.
Skeez

[timford]

Anthony,

Do you mind my asking you how old you are?

If you want to get into working on tube amps you need to gain some knowledge about electronics.

I suggest maybe getting a pedal kit from BYOC or someplace to get some soldering experience and some component familiarity.

Tube amps have very high voltage on the tubes and you can injure or kill yourself if you are not careful.

Take some baby steps before diving in.

Most the guys here have been messing around with this stuff for years.

There are a few places that sell amp kits but I don't think you will find a Boogie kit or anything that close to it without some severe modifications.

There are only a couple people that sell amp kits with instructions, Allen being one of them.

It's best to start with a simple kit because if you don't know anything, you will be overwhelmed when you get a kit with no instructions, just the parts.

Like just about everybody here, you can get real close with a good amp (your Fender) and some decent pedals.

With Carlos Santana, it is more his style and the way he phrases his music than just the guitar and amp.
It's in the hands as they say.
Sure he sets it up to have a lot of sustain but that is just gaining up the preamp which you can do with pedals.

Good luck on your adventure.

thanks appreciate your concern! i'm 28, i'm actually in school for renewable energy to work on electronics, such as wind turbines and airplane cams; right now we are learning about the amplifier circuits so I though i could build a amp head from online kits? to get a santana tone amp?? I though they all came with schematics and some what instructions? i was checking the weber kits and torres engineering sites? it seems easy I guess?? i could be very wrong? do you know any good info sites or books to get into? thanks!

I'd highly recommend reading Merlin Blencowe's books http://www.valvewizard.co.uk/, as well as anything else you can get your hands on http://www.amazon.com/Design-Constructi ... 0615291805. There is a thread here somewhere listing a massive amount of literature https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... ht=#179238

And a whole lot of very knowledgeable people. Read lots of posts, and then look under the profiles of some of the posters of interest to you and read through their previous entries. It is like reading a book itself.

And get your fingers singing on the fretboard. Many amps can sound fantastic playing Santana, or anything else to your fancy, even if the basic tone of the amp is in a completely different ball park. My passion is cleaner, simple amps, no effects, and it is my ideal way to play santana, or gilmour, or knopfler. My advice is the advice I have got. Make a simple tube amp and learn. Playing wise I can not over recommend the program Amazing slow downer http://www.ronimusic.com/. Slow your favorite guitarist down, turn up those tubes, and really get into it. Feel it and let the tubes sing along with your fingers. That is where it is at. For me anyhow............