Help! I tried to recap my amp!

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Phil_S
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Re: Help! I tried to recap my amp!

Post by Phil_S »

MBD115 wrote:
Structo wrote:I will refrain from advising
I vote no to that idea.
At least, let's try not to feed him too much at once or too many choices. He has no frame of reference to judge what should be at the top of the list. I may be guilty here.
OP The added noise is because someone changed the power tubes to El84's at sometime in the past???
Change from a 7189 to EL84 will make that sort of difference?
I need an update on this post. I'm lost now. :D :D :D
We all could. In breif, as I recall:
Amp needed a cap job, done.
Needs filaments rewired for Russian preamp tubes, done.
Hums, OP needs help, headed towards standard artificial CT for filaments.
Hums, several suggestion on ground mods.
Bias calc done, seems to be running hot, suggested increase Rk to 180.
Amp probably needs filaments rewired away from signal wires and a good chopsticking.
Other noise -- scratchy pots? Other e-caps need to be changed? Hissy plate load resistors?
OP is a vrigin. Needs step by step help. First time, be gentle :shock:
docz
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Re: Help! I tried to recap my amp!

Post by docz »

Thanks guys, please contribute what you all feel like, I will try to sort it out and I will ask if I get confused :)

Great summary Phil, I will try to elaborate on that.

Amp needed cap job: Done, except for the non-electrolyte coupling and tone caps

Amp needed new tubes: Done, bought on ebay, got screwed on a pair of Russian tubes that were said to be direct replacements for the 12AX7s

Needs filaments rewired for Russian preamp tubes, done.

Hums, OP needs help, headed towards standard artificial CT for filaments. Will do that tonight, I just needed to buy a fresh roll of electrical tape.

Hums, several suggestion on ground mods, I will check these out later once I try the new artificial CT, these mods require an extensive rewiring because of the general layout of the amp.

Bias calc done, seems to be running hot, suggested increase Rk to 180, I will need to source the resistor.

Amp probably needs filaments rewired away from signal wires and a good chopsticking. What is chopsticking?!?

Other noise -- scratchy pots? Other e-caps need to be changed? Hissy plate load resistors? Pots, switches, jacks, sockets and ground lugs are cleaned with naphta contact cleaner, pots are as good as noise free. All resistors except for those with higher than 1/2W rating, and those on the inputs are changed. None of this has helped the scratch/hiss noise.

DocZ
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Phil_S
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Re: Help! I tried to recap my amp!

Post by Phil_S »

docz wrote:Thanks guys, please contribute what you all feel like, I will try to sort it out and I will ask if I get confused :)
Fair enough. You're doing well, Doc.
Great summary Phil, I will try to elaborate on that.

Amp needed cap job: Done, except for the non-electrolyte coupling and tone caps
Yes, you did what is known as a cap job, electrolytics only. The coupling caps are where the mojo lives. Keep those unless they are leaking DC voltage.
Amp needed new tubes: Done, bought on ebay, got screwed on a pair of Russian tubes that were said to be direct replacements for the 12AX7s

Needs filaments rewired for Russian preamp tubes, done.

Hums, OP needs help, headed towards standard artificial CT for filaments. Will do that tonight, I just needed to buy a fresh roll of electrical tape.
Tape? What for? Ordinarily, there is no tape in an amp. Say what, you'll get guidance.
Hums, several suggestion on ground mods, I will check these out later once I try the new artificial CT, these mods require an extensive rewiring because of the general layout of the amp.

Bias calc done, seems to be running hot, suggested increase Rk to 180, I will need to source the resistor.

Amp probably needs filaments rewired away from signal wires and a good chopsticking. What is chopsticking?!?
:lol: Chopstiking :lol: This is the art of using a non conductive probe, often a chopstick (plastic stick, whatever is non conductive, but not a pencil as the carbon ("lead") is conductive) to move wires around while listening to the result, making hum better, worse, no change, while you've got the amp cranked up so you can really hear it.
Other noise -- scratchy pots? Other e-caps need to be changed? Hissy plate load resistors? Pots, switches, jacks, sockets and ground lugs are cleaned with naphta contact cleaner, pots are as good as noise free. All resistors except for those with higher than 1/2W rating, and those on the inputs are changed. None of this has helped the scratch/hiss noise.
DocZ
Sorry to hear the hiss/scratchy noises are not improving. Maybe you've got a leaky coupling cap and what you hear is the cap discharging as it may be partially functional. See if any of those caps are passing DC. A cap blocks DC. It is sometimes called a blocking cap or decoupling cap.
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Re: Help! I tried to recap my amp!

Post by docz »

About the tape, was I not supposed to wind tape around the two leads that were twisted together on those two resistors?

Chopsticking sounds well... how should I put it.... like amp extreme sports :) I'm not sure there is enough leeway (Spelling?!) in the wires to move them about?

I'll check those coupling caps again once I get a new mutli-meter, the one I have seems to have stopped working, it doesn't want to measure voltage anymore, just resistance.... any idea why that is?

DocZ
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Phil_S
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Re: Help! I tried to recap my amp!

Post by Phil_S »

100 ohm: You shouldn't need tape. Just ground them at the same spot. If they don't reach, make a hook on each end, and join them. Insert a wire between the hooks to extend the length. Clamp the joint with piiers and solder it. Just a small amount of solder to keep the joint tight. If you want to insulate, heat shrink tubing, if you can get it, is better than tape. Tape will unstick. It isn't reliable. When I said "insulate" what I really meant was to keep things in the air so unwanted contact isn't made.

Chopsticking: sometimes just the smallest move makes a difference. Sometimes it does nothing.

Sorry about your meter going bad. Punish it. Maybe it will improve its behavior. :o
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Re: Help! I tried to recap my amp!

Post by docz »

is it real important that they are exactly 100 ohm? I have 68, 270, 300 and 330 but not 100. Can I use any of those?

DocZ
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martin manning
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Re: Help! I tried to recap my amp!

Post by martin manning »

docz wrote:is it real important that they are exactly 100 ohm? I have 68, 270, 300 and 330 but not 100. Can I use any of those?
Typical values seen in this usage are 100-220 Ohms. Either the 68 or 270-ohm will probably work, but the lower value will draw more current from the power transformer, drag the heater voltage down, and possibly cause overheating.

The safer move would be to use the 270's, but they may not be as effective at reducing hum since the reference voltage will be farther above ground.

If the heater winding in the power transformer can spare 50 mA or so, the 68's will work. That's not that much, since each 12AX7 draws 300 mA. Perhaps you could get a clue by measuring the heater voltage as it is, and then again after installing the resistors. If it drops more than a few percent maybe it would be better to go with higher value resistors.

MPM

PS: The heater wiring doesn't look too bad, really, except maybe around the first 12AX7. Maybe you could try something like the attached pic (looks like there is enough wire there) and see some improvement.
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Phil_S
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Re: Help! I tried to recap my amp!

Post by Phil_S »

docz wrote:is it real important that they are exactly 100 ohm? I have 68, 270, 300 and 330 but not 100. Can I use any of those? DocZ
I would parallel a pair of 270 on each side or series a pair of 68. That's 135 or 136 per side. I think 68 is on the low side and 270 too high, see other post above.
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Re: Help! I tried to recap my amp!

Post by docz »

Ok, I paralelled two 270R on both of the 6.3V lugs of the transformer, then I hooked those up to a cable and connected that to the screw where the ground wire from the mains is connected. I now have a steady 6.0V supply to the filaments, it used to be between 6.3 and 6.8. Result no more loud hum, unless I put my guitar into the amp, or I touch the end of the coupling cap on V1 and V2. It does still hum, but very very low. The noise however is still there.

Just a quick question, the PT says 6.3V 2A, does that mean I should use 12W resistors instead of the 1/2W I'm using now for the artificial center tap? Or is that how much current that is available, and not how much is actually going through it? This is still something that confuses me a bit.

I did some "chopsticking" no effect, but when I accidentally hit the coupling cap (0.02) on V2 it made it worse, so I tried doing some more random poking, and I found that pushing on that whole terminal strip where that cap connects ( this is the one that V2 to EL84. I also measured between 3 and 5V DC comming out of that 0.022 cap, does that mean it is leaky? All other caps were ok. 0V DC

And I picked up a copy of Electronics for Dummies, I've been reading it all day, it has a lot of information, but is quite good at explaining things for dummies like me. I recommend it to anyone who is like me real confused about all the almost esoteric concepts involved in this field.

DocZ
Cornelius
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Re: Help! I tried to recap my amp!

Post by Cornelius »

Sounds like you have Chopsticked on the right spot. ;) I'd swap that cap and see if that would help.

And 6.3V, 2A are what the PT can deliver. (of 6.3V, that is. ;) )
docz
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Re: Help! I tried to recap my amp!

Post by docz »

Ok, I will change it, should I splurge for a PIO 30$ a pop cap? Or use a ceramic, polyester or mica cap that costs a fraction of that?

DocZ
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martin manning
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Re: Help! I tried to recap my amp!

Post by martin manning »

Most feel that polyester (Mylar), polystyrene, or polypropylene film caps sound the best. It should be rated at 400 or 600V. They are a dollar or two each over here.

BTW, the power that must be dissipated by a resistor is determined by the voltage across it. In the case of your artificial CT, you have 6.3V across 270 ohms. It's 270 because you have a 270 paralleled with another 270 = 135, and two of those assemblies are in series.

So from Ohm's law, V=I*R, I = 6.3/270 = 0.0233A. Then P = I*V, P = 0.0233*6.3 = 0.147 W. This is being shared equally by four resistors, so half-watts are plenty big enough.
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Re: Help! I tried to recap my amp!

Post by docz »

Ah thanks for your help Martin, I understand now, so if I hooked the resistor up to the 240V mains, i would have needed (240/270)*240 = 213,33 W so then I would have needed a 214W or larger resistor in theory right?

DocZ
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Re: Help! I tried to recap my amp!

Post by mcrracer »

I still suggest that the OP build a simple SE amp for several reasons"
To get a feel for what goes where
To see what parts do what
To get the feel good of making an amp work
To gain some experience
I don't know , maybe it's just me but the time , effort and money spent on this could have given him a couple of "working" amps by now. Anybody have an idea of what it would cost to mail an eyelet board to him? I am in Chicago and I make my own eyelet boards for all of my builds. I am willing to make him a board for an amp for free just to help him get started in the right direction. Anybody else willing to help him out?
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Phil_S
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Re: Help! I tried to recap my amp!

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docz wrote:Ok, I paralelled two 270R on both of the 6.3V lugs of the transformer, then I hooked those up to a cable and connected that to the screw where the ground wire from the mains is connected.
Great work, forbidden practice.

Great that you constructed the center tap. Very bad that you joined it to the mains ground. You must move it. Move it anywhere else but there, preferably to it's own spot on the chassis. As I suggested a transformer bolt is OK. One of the ground lugs on a terminal strip is OK, as long as nothing else is there.

The reason you don't want to use the mains ground is that you now have a potential connection between the mains supply and the filament winding. One function of a transformer is to fully isolate the mains supply from the amp's power supply. You've potentially defeated that if something should go wrong. Fix this NOW, please.
I now have a steady 6.0V supply to the filaments, it used to be between 6.3 and 6.8. Result no more loud hum, unless I put my guitar into the amp, or I touch the end of the coupling cap on V1 and V2. It does still hum, but very very low. The noise however is still there.
Yes, I was reasonably certain the artificial CT would quiet the hum, which you reported earlier is 50Hz. 6.0V is fully acceptable. You'll find that it varies with the mains line voltage. Use your meter to check your mains supply at the wall socket once every hour...you might be surprised at the variation you see.

It is likely the filament wiring is not your only source of hum. The question is whether you can live with it or if you want to continue the hunt.

The guitar and cable are a big antenna. You'll get hum from your pickups. Mute with your hands or turn volume down at the guitar. If that makes it go away, it is normal and not the amp.
Just a quick question, the PT says 6.3V 2A, does that mean I should use 12W resistors instead of the 1/2W I'm using now for the artificial center tap? Or is that how much current that is available, and not how much is actually going through it? This is still something that confuses me a bit.
I think Martin covered this very nicely. 0.5W is good for most everything in guitar amps. The power supply laddeer would be one exception. Cathode resistor on yoru power tube would be another.
I did some "chopsticking"
Getting to be a real pro!
no effect, but when I accidentally hit the coupling cap (0.02) on V2 it made it worse, so I tried doing some more random poking, and I found that pushing on that whole terminal strip where that cap connects ( this is the one that V2 to EL84. I also measured between 3 and 5V DC comming out of that 0.022 cap, does that mean it is leaky? All other caps were ok. 0V DC
Yes, that is the art of chopsticking. Tap resistors and caps, move wires, whatever. I think you found a bad one. There is nothing wrong with trying an inexpensive film cap. In the bad old days, manufacturers were known to be penny pinchers and they made many of the amps we know and love. As for the cap, if you find .02 or even .025, don't be concerned about the exact value.
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