So, if changing cap brands...

[FYL]

Following that line of inquiry, would it be fair to say that a Chinese tube with the same electrical measurements as a Mullard, Tung-sol, or Amperex Bugle Boy would be sonic equivalents?

Which measurements? If the tubes show the same static and dynamic characteristics, it'll be pretty much impossible to reliably find subjective differences in proper double blind tests. But even tubes from the same batch show different chars...

If you only consider basic static chars such as Gm and current draw at lowish anode voltages, there could be huge subjective differences - for instance a misaligned grid modifies greatly the transfer function, and the amp will sound differently.

So the answer is could be, not would be.

BTW; Chinese tubes have been resold by a lot of large "manufacturers" under their own brands for decades, beginning with GEC shifting production of their KT66 and KT88's in the '70s. Yes, those muy expensivo Genalex Gold Lion big bottles at 1K a pair could very well be genuine *and* Chinese.

Or that a 120vac to 6.3vac filament transformer, which has a turns ratio of 19 to 1 and would have an impedance of ~2.9K ohms when driving an 8 ohm load, would be the sonic equivalent of a Heybour SE output transformer?

It can't : it's core would saturate real fast because it's not designed for DC current. Add a gap and try it in SE mode, it could work. Would it sound the same as a high quality OT? I don't think so.

Where is the boundary between science and art? Is there a boundary?

There are no boundaries : they run parallel tracks.

[FYL]

aw come on, if you have mojo then you have to have a ritual.

I liberally sprinkle my amps with vintage powdered Mojo flakes. They are very expensive and difficult to apply properly, but afterwards a Chinese Lost Paul sounds as good as a Staircaster.

[Dai H.]

dude! that's completey wrong. It's gotta SOUND scientific.

re: the sozos, they don't seem to be poor quality or anything. Price doesn't look too bad. Some of the mustard mythology doesn't make sense however. For example, they were not the only cap used by Marshall in the original old amps. Factual evidence probably doesn't matter to some people though, but I guess that isn't far beyond the ordinary or so it seems.

[Dai H.]

hmm... you know I just thought that it would be cool to have an online temple of amp bling. A shrine to amps having the most outrageously expensive or rare components. An orgy of fetishism and self-indulgence. Sick sick sick.

[Les]

hmm... you know I just thought that it would be cool to have an online temple of amp bling. A shrine to amps having the most outrageously expensive or rare components. An orgy of fetishism and self-indulgence. Sick sick sick.

It already exists... see Randall Smith.

[jjman]

$0.02

For me, art is in the eye of the beholder. There are countless things referred to as “art” that I find to be no such thing. Science, for me, is something that can provide measurements. The problem is whether the measured results are from a causation, or a mere correlation, and are they relevant.

If you take a digital ohm meter and place each terminal in each of your hands, you can vary the readout by “intensifying” your muscles. My guess is that it’s from an increase in sweat. This is a form of “biofeedback.” There is a Hollywood “religion” that has new comers sit at a table and hold a terminal in each hand. A “meter” then displays whatever alleged mumbo jumbo reading this is supposed to represent. It’s a simple ohmmeter. Are these results scientifically valid as a representation of the differing resistance between differing people during the measurement? Yes. Are they valid scientific results related to anything the “religion” claims? Probably not.

A classic example of correlation (not causation) is the “red car.” Is a red car more likely to be in an accident? Yes. Is it caused by the red paint? No. If you paint a minivan red will it’s risk of an accident increase? No. Is a sports car more likely to be red? Yes. Is a sports car more likely to be in an accident? Yes. (Because of the typical type of driver in the sports car.)

Does a guitar with scratches and worn finish sound better? Perhaps. 15 years ago (before “Relics” and such) a typical guitar with worn finish was more likely to be older. A typical guitar with pristine finish was more likely to be newer. Assuming that older guitars generally sound better, there would be a correlation between bad finish condition and better tone. If I scratch my new guitar will the sound improve? No. Does a new guitar, that was scratched at the factory, sound better from the scratches? No. Can one pretend that they are playing a vintage guitar because it’s factory scratched and pre-worn? Absolutely!

Can 2 gauge cable conduct current better than 4 gauge? Yes. Should I use 2 gauge for my speaker wires in a guitar amp? No. Here the science says the 2 gauge is “better” but is this improvement relevant in a guitar amp? No.

I don’t pretend to know what the relevant parameters are for coupling caps sounding good in a guitar amp. I haven’t learned those and have had to rely on general consensus so far. That’s where groups like this are invaluable.

It would be a shame if cap companies are providing irrelevant parameter specs in there ads when marketing for guitar amp use. But it would not be a surprise.

[Noel Grassy]

"Audio engineering suffers from misinformation, disinformation, and downright lying more than most fields of endeavour."

quoted from analogguru's sig @freestompboxes.org.

When the question was posed, "Where is the boundary between science and art? Is there a boundary?".

The levity of FYL's statement, "There are no boundaries : they run parallel tracks" may not have been implied by the author but I gets my jollies more often than most. The statement is not only accurate in my opinion but delightfully humorous upon further inspection.

Aint this a grand site folks?

Noel Grassy.

[Kregg]

Break-in

By break-in ... do they mean that it sounds better as it carbones up?

My question with so many of these brand loyal claims is wether the components and speakers aren't just getting better as they age? Plus, as we learn how the amp responds to our input, we also learn how to properly set the controls to achieve the best tone based on the amps limitations.
That's no to say that some products are simply inferior to others.

[Structo]

Hi Kregg,

Yes I think a lot of things do sound better with age.
We know that a guitar amp speaker often times sounds better with age.
The surrounds loses it's stiffness a bit.
Tubes definitely seem to lose the high end of the spectrum with age.
Whether or not that is a good thing or not probably depends on the type of amp it is and what the player likes in it.

The mojo that surrounds caps seems very pervasive in the guitar amp industry. I think there is a definite character to them.
And if we think it is pervasive here, you only have to visit one of the tube Hi Fi amp forums to witness that the sickness is even worse there.
Talk about anal.

I recently removed the orange drops out my little 6V6 amp and replaced them with Mallory 150's. It seems a bit smoother in tone now.
But it is a subtle difference.

Along with what type of resistor is used.

A lot of vintage amp replicas brag that they have Allen Bradley carbon comp resistors in them.

But is it a good thing when a resistor value drifts out of spec or developes that hissiness that sometimes is prevalent with them?

In the end, there is a lot of subjectiveness and hype with these products.

We rely many times on what has been said about components that we have not personally tried yet.

I for one am glad that people like John from Sozo are around keeping tube amps alive with their components along with the current vacuum tube manufacturers. Even though we bitch about the new tubes, where would we be with a dwindling supply of vintage NOS or used tubes?

In the end, one thing all of us in this forum can agree on is, tube amps are cool!
And we love working on them and building them regardless of the components we choose to use in them.

[Noel Grassy]

Tom, I used to disparage the Hi-Fi High Enders too. But now I spend more time trying to think of what I could create for a need they haven't fulfilled. They will buy anything with the correct percieved need and pay dearly when you point out the deficiency. I'd like a portion of that market pretty soon.

NG.

[Structo]

Tom, I used to disparage the Hi-Fi High Enders too. But now I spend more time trying to think of what I could create for a need they haven't fulfilled. They will buy anything with the correct percieved need and pay dearly when you point out the deficiency. I'd like a portion of that market pretty soon.

NG.

heheheh, yes it would be like feeding their OCD.

I am amazed when I visit Hi Fi online stores the things and extremes they go to, to achieve sonic nirvana.

We've seen the $400 wooden knobs and such.
The $300 + power cords, etc.

I liked the one thing I saw which was like little trestles to hold the pair of speaker wires up off the floor.
I can understand sometimes what they are trying to achieve with their obsessive behavior but I would have to win the lottery to be able to do half of what I have seen done in their Hi Fi systems.

I'd like a piece of that pie too!

[Kregg]

The irony for me was when I could finally afford high end nirvana I developed tinnitus.

[M Fowler]

My wallet or lack of funds has always determined what I like. Until recently I did all my shopping at the local dump scrounging old TV sets of there large resistors and caps.

It doesn't matter if I would like to have NOS tubes I can't afford them unless my sister-in-law grabs them for me from various places.

To Sozo or not to Sozo isn't bad as those caps are not that expensive.

Now transformers are way out of price, could do something about that please. Copper price has fallen and steel right with it so it must be labor.

Mark

[Structo]

Yes no doubt that transformers are very expensive.
I suppose the tube amp business is a niche market.
Nowadays, the only needed transformer is the power transformer since most solid state amps don't use output transformers.
And the PT's for SS devices are certainly not in the high voltages needed in tube operation.

I guess we should feel fortunate that we can even buy PT's for tube amps.