Carol-Ann

[LeftyStrat]

I would love to hear Glenn playing both his strat and les paul through an hrm.

I'm with you though, most of the clips I've heard of dumbles are playing styles that I'm not really into. Of course, if all I wanted to do is emulate my favorite players, I'd stick to a fuzz face into a 100 watt Marshall, or a huge pedal board into an Alembic preamp into the power stage of a Hiwatt, or a Tele with a humbucker into a 50 watt marshall.

Don't get me wrong, it is thrilling playing through the Wreck clones I have built. But if I had to be stranded on a deserted island with my strat and one amp, I'd probably go with a 69 Super Bass. At least on a deserted island I could crank it loud enough to get to the sweet tones without someone complaining (unless there was an inhabited island within a couple miles )

Anyway, I'm going to have to stop postponing my dumble build, these clips definitely show a different side of the dumble design.

[skyboltone]

I would love to hear Glenn playing both his strat and les paul through an hrm.
Of course, if all I wanted to do is emulate my favorite players, I'd stick to a fuzz face into a 100 watt Marshall, or a huge pedal board into an Alembic preamp into the power stage of a Hiwatt, or a Tele with a humbucker into a 50 watt marshall.

Yeah but if you did that you'ld have to quit building, then what? Go blind? Grow hair on the palms of your hands? I'd hate to think of what life would be like without building amps and other electronical stuff.

[LeftyStrat]

I would love to hear Glenn playing both his strat and les paul through an hrm.
Of course, if all I wanted to do is emulate my favorite players, I'd stick to a fuzz face into a 100 watt Marshall, or a huge pedal board into an Alembic preamp into the power stage of a Hiwatt, or a Tele with a humbucker into a 50 watt marshall.

Yeah but if you did that you'ld have to quit building, then what? Go blind? Grow hair on the palms of your hands? I'd hate to think of what life would be like without building amps and other electronical stuff.

True, true. But I believe even if I found "my" holy grail, it would not be anyone elses. So I could still build amps and help other players find theirs.

If there was one tube to rule them all, none of us would be building.

And thank God that no great guitarist wants to sound like any other. There is always room for new amps and new tones.

[paulster]

I would love to hear Glenn playing both his strat and les paul through an hrm.
<snip>
But if I had to be stranded on a deserted island with my strat and one amp, I'd probably go with a 69 Super Bass.

Glen has a '68 Super Bass. Can't wait for the day he decides to record some clips with that!

[drz400]

. Just don't be tempted to make exact clones of current production amps to sell. Apart from being wrong, it can land you in legal high water.

Alan.

IS there anything to really protect an amp builder from his designs being knocked off?
I dont think so unless you are Randall Smith

['67_Plexi]

. Just don't be tempted to make exact clones of current production amps to sell. Apart from being wrong, it can land you in legal high water.

Alan.

IS there anything to really protect an amp builder from his designs being knocked off?
I dont think so unless you are Randall Smith

The guys building and selling product clones from their basements or using some 'patented' circuit could be an easy target if a Manufacturer did decide to pursue the issue to make an example.
It all boils down to who can afford the best Attourney at the end of the day. A large Company could bankrupt a small Company of a part time /hobby seller rather quickly, even if the validity of their legal argument was questionable just by dragging them through the process.

[LeftyStrat]

Three words:

"Acoustic Control Corporation"

They were sued out of existence by Mesa, for making a look-a-like.

Most tube circuits aren't protected, except for some of the stupidity Randell Smith has patented. But since none of us have the resources or inclination to challenge these patents (nor the desire to clone a Messy Booger Triple Rectum Fryer), I suggest steering clear of them.

However, the real issue is making something that is similar in appearance. A company may not be able to patent the actual tube circuit, but they can have design patents and trademarks that can be used to crush anyone in court for encroachment.

Hey, at least Jim Marshall turned the chassis upside down

[Mac Daddy]

Big Fan
[IMG:800:559]http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a373/bduds/CA.jpg[/img]

[FUCHSAUDIO]

Three words:

"Acoustic Control Corporation"

They were sued out of existence by Mesa, for making a look-a-like

Acoustic went out of business through mismanagement. The brown tolex covered amps (the tube ones with the EQ) were not that great sounding, and although they marked "the beginning of the end" for Acoustic as a company (who's back now btw), it did not result in a lawsuit by Mesa. The Boogie Brothers amp (by Mitchell) were actually copies of Mesas (right down to the boards) and had wicker grilles, and THEY were sued out of business by Mesa. Perhaps you confused the two amps and companies.

We agree on Randall's proclivity for being litigious btw. Just make sure you give credit only where due....

[Andy Le Blanc]

bedrock was another that cloned a little to close
and called it their own
its a very old market.... and original is hard to do
damn near every thing looks like a reworked fender
only because fender has held such dominate place
in the market for so long...... the best one might do
is try to insure a "proprietary" claim to a design
the train wrecks seem to be a fresh point to start
its like making a copy home use....do you have to pay
kens family every time you use it on a gig where you get payed
I known that I cant play exact arrangements of a piece of music
with out by rights paying a royalty..... nobody does of course

amps sound differnt for a host of reasons
most are general design considerations
there are only so many phase inverters
so many cap types, layout and build styles
pre amp configurations that are simple and practical
output configurations that sound good when overdriven
after years of study and work what you come up with
most likley will never be original
it after all just and amp....

[drz400]

What rights does Dumble have against those companies who have come very close to his designs? I know Dumble is very much a Fender circuit with added gain stage but there are things that separate his amps.

Who came first Dumble or Boogie?

Also funny about Boogie is that the rectifrier lead channel is SO damm close to a SLO100 it is scary!

[muchxs]

Who came first Dumble or Boogie?

AFAIK Dumble was working on amps back in '65 pre-dating Boogie by at least a couple years. It's difficult to say whether a Mk I Boogie is a rip of an early Dumble or the other way around, great minds think alike. R.S. certainly hasn't been shy about laying claim to ideas he wishes he came up with...

Also funny about Boogie is that the rectifrier lead channel is SO damm close to a SLO100 it is scary!

...Like the D.R.. If you want to get Mike Soldano going just ask him about the D.R.. Soldano still sells "enough" Soldanos and Boogie still sells "enough" Boogies.

[Andy Le Blanc]

what right does a maker have

drz400 asked a very good question

say a member of the forum makes the ultimate amp

what steps does he have to take to protect his\her design

[muchxs]

what right does a maker have

drz400 asked a very good question

say a member of the forum makes the ultimate amp

what steps does he have to take to protect his\her design

If you have money you can afford justice. For lack of money you might as well be Rodney King!

Trademarks are easy to register and easy to enforce. Still, it works out to "My lawyer is bigger than your lawyer" if you find yourself going toe to toe with an entity like Mesa-Boogie.

Patents are a little harder to get and can be harder to enforce. Primarily you need a unique concept or a unique adaptation of an existing concept. A patent is worthless if it can be proven the idea was in common use before you applied for your patent. Someone with deep pockets could challenge Mesa for instance if they had enough money to fight the good fight. Refer to "My lawyer is bigger than your lawyer", if you can barely afford to file a patent you probably can't afford to protect it. Frankly there is very little that is new and original in tube technology.

If you're running a bedroom operation there are other things you should worry about before you consider protecting your ideas...

...like packaging. So you have a good circuit. I see a lot of good circuits "naked" in a chassis with the tubes vulnerable. You can sell garbage if it looks great, try selling "great" if it looks like garbage.

Once you "reinvent the wheel" you're going to have an uphill battle selling your new and improved wheel. Musicians are an astonishingly conservative lot.

[Firestorm]

Three words:

"Acoustic Control Corporation"

They were sued out of existence by Mesa, for making a look-a-like

Acoustic went out of business through mismanagement.

I'm sure Andy is right about the reasons for Acoustic's demise. The way I first heard the Mesa Boogie story was that Mesa sued ACC for copping the graphic EQ in the 164/165 (and it WAS a circuit-for-circuit, value-for-value copy). But Mesa never had a patent on that EQ. I believe Mesa did sue ACC, but it was for violating their patent (4,211,893) on lead/rhythm "mode" switching. Thankfully, Randall's early patents (like this one) have expired. Not to worry though, I'm sure Randall will be fine.